CoH 2 the Single Player What the ...

God you're thick, WW2 can be fictionalized just like anything else.

Look, I didn't say it can't
Just that this campaign is so one-sided that it can twist the perception of real facts in minds of anyone who plays it

Eugenics was considered a valid science by most of the world during this period.

Racial profiling and sterlisation/separation politics where more or less universal throughout all major powers, and incipient in social attitudes in minor nations.

Racism and ethnocentric perspectives ran rife everywhere, including the Soviet Union, which also placed a particular emphasis, as a declaredly atheist state, of eliminating religion and its human proponents throught the Union.

Mass genocides of minorities, religious, ethnic, sexual and political, where largely perpetrated by indigenous populations in Eastern Europe on their own neighbours.
At first under supervision of the Einsatzgruppen following in the wake of the Wehrmacht advance, and later under supervision of the Soviet NKVD, peoples courts and central party (in particular of perceived collaborators) also for intent of ethnic, political, sexual and religious undesirables.

Following the war, several Nazi concentration camps where re-purposed by the Soviet Union in order to "concentrate" their own perceived undesirables for later exportation to Siberia or other penal labor camps.

Soviet rape statistics have only recently become an issue of study and controversy, owing to the sensitivity of this issue both after the war for issues of "victorious nation" status and immunity to Nuremburg trials, and because of the sensitivty of the issue for the raped women, who a) suffered social stigma (irrationally) for having had sexual intercourse, whether consensually or not, with occupying forces b) rape rates and abortion rates are still to this day, statistically extremely under reported. It stands to reason that at this period report rates where only a fraction of the fraction it is today. Indirectly corellatory towards Russian issues with sexuality are the current anti-homosexual legislative actions as well as violent attacksmon LGBT rights protests.

Documented births as consequence of Soviet rape are estimated at 1.7million individual female incidents.
Firsthand sources state that Soviet troops gangraped females of all ages and physical condition, from children, to adults, to elderly and the infirm. Firsthand sources testify that Soviet troops considered this kind of gangrape to be inline with Communist idealistic "sharing". Fatalities from death due to trauma resulting from gangrape, suicide as a result of psychological trauma and execution to hide evidence of the rapes, are (obviously) unreported and unclear.

General concensus from firsthand sources and historians investigating this gangrape phenomena paints the overall picture, however, thst the MAJORITY of females (regardless of age) in Eastern Europe, where sexually assaultes, molested, raped or gangraped at least once by occupying Soviet forces.

3 factors strongly indicate disciplinary problems related to the Red Army, as forced into service through conscription (o4 voluntarily) throughout the vast span ofmthe Union, which at the time was still predominantly undeveloped and in the throes of restructuring following the Bolshevik Revolutiom:
- Alcohol and alcoholism was a systemic concern for the Red Army. Soldiers where regularly allocated alcoholm0 rations as motivator and because without it, discipline would have been impossible. This directly led to anti-social behavior towards occupied populations. Alcohol + military= disaster.
(Note: There is a precedent for alcohol rations in various navies, British in particular, whom received a ration or rum daily intil very recently. These men, however, where unable to perpetrate rape of women while inebriated, because there where no women aboard. Discipline onboard naval vessels also, overall in this period, was necessarily, also extremelly strict. However, there is a reason navies carry a homosexual connotation, since when without female company, males seem invariably to lookmfor other sexual outlets, as also demonstrated by males in long term incarceration. Tough stuff to admit/recognise/understand, but sufficiently evidenced phenomena of male sexuality).
-Orde4 227:. Untrained and undisciplined Red Army troops where prone to fleeing their positions (and who can blame them vs hardened Ostheer and incompetent commanders). The Union was losing the war at this point, and forced to play a stalling action. According to this strategem, retreating was utterly unnacceptable. The Union needed time to reorganise for a total war economy. Nonetheless, fleeing is evidence of lack ofmdiscipline and training.
-Rape. Indisputably the most understated horror of war. Every war in human history involves this crime. Men, when in male company and separated from women for protracted periods, become sexually predatory in the military, unless specifically disciplined or allowed "legal" access tomsex, such as prostitutes. There is no way around this, and it ismhard to accept in any periods peacetime morality, but it is,STILL, as big a problem as ever before. African civil wars in particular are a modern expressiin of this ubiquitous terrible side-effect of war. Women are not only raped for sexual gratification, but also to ethnically cleanse the occupied population, as a means of revenge towards opposing populatiins, but now also a deliberate intent to spread HIV in the occupied areas.

German troops where restricted from sexual intercourse with Eastern European women by 1) Binding German racial laws 2) Social bias of intercourse with indigenous populations considered "untermenschen" 3) The Ostheers predominantly Prussian officer pool with its traditionalist attitutdes towards discipline and treatment of occupied populations. Unfortunately, the SS, and the Einsatzgruppen particular, did not share this notion as related to outright murder and genocide...

Soviet troops however, as a result of alcohol, st4ong revenge attitude vs German genocide plans for the Union, misguided motive of counteracting German racial purity actions in Eastern Europe (Germanisation) through rape (as genetic Russification of the populations), and a lack of training and discipline in troops thrown straight into the war (which is still commonplace in Russia, as evidenced by conscripted recruits being sent directly to frontlines in Georgia, Chechnya and Afghanistan earlier) had no parallel ideological restrictions.

Look, I didn't say it can't
Just that this campaign is so one-sided that it can twist the perception of real facts in minds of anyone who plays it

Maybe if 12 year olds are playing it, but i doubt they will like a game like this, sorry for calling you thick, i didn't quite understand what you were saying

I wonder how the Russians feel knowing that their ancestors welcomed the Nazis with open arms right up until those fucktards in the SS started shooting everybody and screwed everything up.

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

The Soviet Union was as much an aggressor as any Axis state.

The Nazis just happened to suckerpunch the Soviets in Poland before Stalin could reorganise/militarise the front. No way the Soviets would have stopped in Poland if the Allies had not landed.

I wonder how the Russians feel knowing that their ancestors welcomed the Nazis with open arms right up until those fucktards in the SS started shooting everybody and screwed everything up.

Ukrainians did that, by expecting freedom from USSR, but instead Hitler screwed them over even more than Stalin.

@Paranoia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

The list is endless, and all of these links subdivide into numerous particular documented instances.

Soviet war attrocity during WWII is appalling, not to mention the subsequent 60 years of oppression and suppression.

This is not a period of Russian history to be proud of, whilst disregarding these facts.
All the more so considering Russia's current suppression and oppression of indigenous populations(as evidenced in Chechnya and Georgia) homosexuals (as evidenced in recent anti-homosexual legislation and violence),political dissidents (such as the band Pussy Riot), and its satellite neighbours (such as continued aggressive politics vs the Ukraine).

Inb4 the US i(or X nation) is worse. Quite plausible on many levels, and justified. But not relevant to Soviet/Russian attrocity.

@Paranoia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

The list is endless, and all of these links subdivide into numerous particular documented instances.

Soviet war attrocity during WWII is appalling, not to mention the subsequent 60 years of oppression and suppression.

This is not a period of Russian history to be proud of, whilst disregarding these facts.
All the more so considering Russia's current suppression and oppression of indigenous populations(as evidenced in Chechnya and Georgia) homosexuals (as evidenced in recent anti-homosexual legislation and violence),political dissidents (such as the band Pussy Riot), and its satellite neighbours (such as continued aggressive politics vs the Ukraine).

Inb4 the US i(or X nation) is worse. Quite plausible on many levels, and justified. But not relevant to Soviet/Russian attrocity.

I'd say, as a neutral person, it's a period for the Russians to be proud of, but with some significant effects that did marr that part of history. But that goes with any historical event. Not everything that ever happens on the winning side is all roses and colours - sometimes, bad things do happen.

Atrocities do happen, but that's in the chaos of war where rules are just broken down, especially between both sides which are heavily propogandised and ideologised (if that's a word, but you know what I mean)

@Hubewa: Agreed. It was a terrible time, for everyone everywhere.

Even her3, in Finland where I reside, there has been a blanket thrown over my nations inexplicable attempts to form a Great Finland by conquering areas of Russia.

It was one thing to defend Finland vs (arguably, inevitable conquest by the Soviets, and therefore early alliance with Germany). It was entirely another to overstep our borders and try to annex, opportunistically, due to the Soviet Unions categorically failed attempt to take over finland in the Winter War, using the impetus of the Germans,at that point, insurmountable advances.

I do my best to tell peopoe here about how the Finnish gulf was mined deliberately by German navy who came over as merchant ships before the launching of Barbarossa. Few believe me.

Finland had only just and just endured its own, completely modernly socially ignored and untaught, civil war between Red and White factions here following the satellite effects of the fall of the Tsarist regime.

Here also, I think lack of education and deliberate social blindness tl these historical cirumstances, is leading to the rise of an extremist right that DOES NOT KNOW ITS OWN COUNTRIES HISTORY.

I do what I can here in Finland, but in Russia this whitewashing of Soviet history is skewing peoples perception of their historical heritage (and culpability) on an institutional and national scale.

I wont bore you with the details of my heritage, suffice to say that Russian immigrants/refugees from the Revolution have become extremely integrated and functiinal members of Finnish society. Its only those who DONT KNOW who side with right wing attitudes. As bad as it is here, its geometric multitudes worse in Russia right now. Why? Misrepresentation of history...

@Paranoia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

The list is endless, and all of these links subdivide into numerous particular documented instances.

Soviet war attrocity during WWII is appalling, not to mention the subsequent 60 years of oppression and suppression.

This is not a period of Russian history to be proud of, whilst disregarding these facts.
All the more so considering Russia's current suppression and oppression of indigenous populations(as evidenced in Chechnya and Georgia) homosexuals (as evidenced in recent anti-homosexual legislation and violence),political dissidents (such as the band Pussy Riot), and its satellite neighbours (such as continued aggressive politics vs the Ukraine).

Inb4 the US i(or X nation) is worse. Quite plausible on many levels, and justified. But not relevant to Soviet/Russian attrocity.

The treaty was signed before the war started. Soviet people never expected an attack from the Fascists and never wanted to join the war.
Invasion to Poland was an expansion of the borders. Here I have to accept it you are right.
Holodomor has nothing to do with WW2 as it happened between 1932 and 1933.
War Crimes as I already stated happened from all the sides. I would like to see what you would do if you see your allies, friends and family or anyone else from your country suffer from the hands of the enemy.
The Rape of German women goes to war crimes as well, no point on answering.
Red Terror dates to 1918–1922 and again nothing to do with the WW2.
Please if you want to argue find something related to WW2, bye

Particularly fail to grasp, is that war began on the Eatern Front the second Stalin and Molotov shook hands with Ribbentrop for annexation and divisiion of Poland.

The USSR was complicit in this act of aggression.

Furthermoe, you fail to recognise the Soviet Unions responsibilty for attrocities before, during and after the war.

This paints YOU very poorly, at the expense of Soviet citizens at the time who resisted these actions listed above, often at the detriment of their own life as well as their families, at the hands of their own government and people.

Acknowleding these crimes does not make you responsible, nor Russians today. Denying or fallaciously justifying them, however, does, as an individual who does not reprehend or condemn suchmaction in the past.

Nullist is correct in his points. I'd also like to add that Germany in the 1920s/30s was a very progressive country. The anti-semetic behavior had not been strong until Hitlers rise to power. There were some writers/newspapers who did have anti semetic feelingt but that was everywhere.

In Russia however, Jewish pogroms were a reality all over the country. Complete with some (believed to be) government sponsored attacks on Jews and their businesses. Russia was a hell of a mess during its soviet rise, Lenin, Trotsky, etc.. Are not the great men some believed them to be, they were murderers. Without going into details the Soviet Union was a regime created from blood. Please educate yourselves and read books, many books. You will find different perspectives from all sorts of sources, then you will be able to create your own (informed) conclusions. Don't use your countries propagandized views and biased writings, read from sources all over. You will be surprised.

Particularly fail to grasp, is that war began on the Eatern Front the second Stalin and Molotov shook hands with Ribbentrop for annexation and divisiion of Poland.

The USSR was complicit in this act of aggression.

Furthermoe, you fail to recognise the Soviet Unions responsibilty for attrocities before, during and after the war.

This paints YOU very poorly, at the expense of Soviet citizens at the time who resisted these actions listed above, often at the detriment of their own life as well as their families, at the hands of their own government and people.

Acknowleding these crimes does not make you responsible, nor Russians today. Denying or fallaciously justifying them, however, does, as an individual who does not reprehend or condemn suchmaction in the past.

I don`t justify the decisions of the Leaders. I protect the memory of my Grand-grandfather who fought the war as a simple soldier and reached Berlin. Saved my grandmother who in fact was Gemanopolish. Risked his and his family life for my grandmother and adopted her. This are the people I protect the memory of, sadly he died the day I was born and I never had the chance to learn about what he really saw.
I am a simple Russian guy , I never studied history. Maybe I am wrong at some stuff, but excuse me for feeling slapped in the face from someone who believes m Grand-grandfather was a savage, a pig. He fought so the people of his motherland would have their own language and traditions, in his eyes he fought for his people freedom. His valiant acts gave a chance for me to be born and I am grateful for what he did.

I dont doubt your Grand-grand father, nor your Gran-grand-gran-grand-grand-father.

I doubt you.

You do them no justice by denying the attoricites committed by his contemporaries, before, during, or after the war.

I dont understand why/how you can deny and blind yourself to the attrocities committed. Your relstives conduct and heritage is one thing, and a testament to his own conduct, and indeed one you can be proud of. BUT that doesnt excuse or cover documented attrocities committed during the Soviet era at large.

No one is blaming your ancestor, if he was truly as you say. Quit3 the co trary, Im sure anyone here would raise a glass, certainly I would, to him for being among those who did NOT fall to the terrible temptations of war, bigotry and oppression.

We are no longer enemies, Paranoia, unless you morally stand for crimes committed.
It was not I, nor you, who fought and lived in this era.

This thread is going nowhere...


nevertheless I saw no company and no heroes during playing SP..
at the end saying that all those millions were lost just to take picture at reichstag ?! really ?

The war was not about, defending the motherland from invasion, killing millions of people in death camps with gas, fire. shooting and barring people in mass graves. it was not about getting rid of Naziism from Europe that enslaved most of it.. and England and other countries would have been next... no.. no.. it was just to take that one picture at reichstag

Show Spoiler

I understand too that is pointless to try to get the point across when one one is so brainwashed and has only 1 point of view and blindly denies everything else..

I wonder.. if there ever be a Pacific theater of war or Vietnam war.. "company of heroes 3?" Will there be missions where you play as American solders and your mission is to burn down the villages with people inside, before rape all woman and children and shoot all buys to the head ...

@Sturmovik: Probably not (implying Full Metal Jacket was not critical).

Maybe instead we'll see a mobie of Chechnya or Georgia with that?
Im sure that woukd make you happy.

Hilarious this Russian prerogative that their own attrocitities would somehow be justified, if they where equally representedin a movie/game/book with German attrocities.

"Its not fair if ypu show our attrocities without showing theirs!"

All my fking wuts.

A Neo-Nazi would share your sentiment iand logic in terms of justifying Nazi attrocities.
You sure thats company ypu want to be associated with?
Do you defend Soviet attrocities?

This thread is going nowhere...

I wonder.. if there ever be a Pacific theater of war or Vietnam war.. "company of heroes 3?" Will there be missions where you play as American solders and your mission is to burn down the villages with people inside, before rape all woman and children and shoot all buys to the head ...

Hopefully not and i must say i did not see any of that stuff in this game either. Your mind playing tricks on you comrad. Go multiplayer if the camaign story gives you nightmares

Neither of you will win this. Both minds are set in stone and neither will swing either way.

Time to agree to disagree in my opinion.

Hopefully not and i must say i did not see any of that stuff in this game either. Your mind playing tricks on you comrad. Go multiplayer if the camaign story gives you nightmares

yeah.. playing MP its just more fun just lil sad that campaign was not what I was hoping it to be... as I always like to play SP before MP..

anyhow.. case closed. moving on.

The topic of this thread is almost identical to the one here:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/5731/dear-relic-can-i-have-a-word-please-russian-history

If you've got more points to make, go ahead and continue in that thread.

*locked