Extremely Predictable Endgame

Hey guys,

Anyone notice that the midgame to endgame portions of this game are really predictable and repetitive? Early game options are great on both sides: maxim spam, clown cars, flame HT, fast T2, gren spam, etc. However, the end game always results in monotonous tank spam... and the same tanks. The germans rely on Ostwind/P4 spam which always results in SU-85 spam. The game then continues like this until one side screws up and looses too many tanks. What every happened to the immense strategy options in COH1? Like fast M8, T1-T3 w/ rangers, German T1-T3 stug/puma, T2-T4 Med bunk, and T1-T4 American play? End game battles with these strategies were diverse and epic!

Even the commanders were more useful and offered more options! For example, solid off map arty, on map arty that was cost effective and actually hit something, call in tanks that fulfilled diverse roles ex: StuH, hetzer(not just mirror versions of what's already in place... ex: p4 command tank and T-34/85). Commander abilities now such as recon flight, tank smoke, armored vehicle detection, expensive bombing runs/strafing runs? Seriously... does anyone really use these often to turn the tide of battle in the current munitions starved situation? (not counting german strafing run...it's broken)

What happened to creative teching and gameplay?

What happened to creative teching and gameplay?

It died along with vCOH.

You didn't get the memo?

All games have a relatively predictable end game. If the game goes long enough there is an ideal composition you will get.

That said doctrines/commanders give a fairly decent amount of variety to an end game - T-34-85s, Tigers, Elephant, Pak 43, IS-2, ISU-152mm, Artillery for both sides - not to mention a large variety of doctrinal strikes for flavour, and yes I use strikes often.

The mid-game in CoH2 is very diverse in my experience so I can't comment on what you've experienced here.

PS. You're not using tank smoke and recon flight? Why?

I agree with Stone. At the moment the Doctrine you choose gives the variety to the endgame. You will always have your backbone stuff, like the P4 and the SU-85, but to mix it up you should throw in those Doctrine abilities.

It might change somewhere in the future, you never know!

I don't find it all that predictable. Break the mould in how you play and what your build orders are. It forces your opponent to do something unorthodox in response or lose. It makes for interesting gameplay if you intentionally do strange build orders.

I don't find it all that predictable. Break the mould in how you play and what your build orders are. It forces your opponent to do something unorthodox in response or lose. It makes for interesting gameplay if you intentionally do strange build orders.

That's the problem with this game, strange build orders = you lose. You can't deviate from the basic plan as it's pointless against any half decent player.

It died along with vCOH.

You didn't get the memo?

That's the problem with this game, strange build orders = you lose. You can't deviate from the basic plan as it's pointless against any half decent player.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about just simply diversity in mid-game/early late game but diversity of units that are also viable. Right before the endgame doctrine units come out (tigers, IS, ISU, Elephant), the game is set in the PIV vs. SU-85 in a cat mouse chase.

Russian T2 (maxim, mortars,ATG) is much more viable than T1 (penal, snipe, clown car) and T4 (SU-85) is much more viable than T3 (T-34). This forces them down the same path on average every time against two evenly matched players. As a result, the german answer will be on average the same: PIV spam to panthers/tiger/elephant which will result in more SU-85 spam lol.

meta needs more time to evolve, its all i gotta say atm

What happened to creative teching and gameplay?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

lol when you want to have a creative endgame then just play creative .My favourite tactic in the moment with ostheer is a elefant rush because soviets always get the su 85.YOu just have to use the fact that a lot of players use standard tactics and then counter them with a creative tactic.Then players will have to play differntly and the endgame becomes more creative nad fun.Standard tactic P4 vs Su 85 Tankhunter vs Tank LOL really ?not very clever ?

Honestly i think this game is missing something atm. No sure exactly what that is but soviets seem to have only one avenue to a win since the patch. Cons spam to su 85s.

I think the true problem atm is there is only one viable unit for really dealing to German armor. The SU 85s. Sure others are possible but can be easly countered by a good German player.

In reality (history) T-34/76 and the P4 were equal. In a 1v1 fight either one could win. I don't feel that the T-34 is well represented at all in this game as its WAS the tank that won WW2.

lol when you want to have a creative endgame then just play creative .My favourite tactic in the moment with ostheer is a elefant rush because soviets always get the su 85.YOu just have to use the fact that a lot of players use standard tactics and then counter them with a creative tactic.Then players will have to play differntly and the endgame becomes more creative nad fun.Standard tactic P4 vs Su 85 Tankhunter vs Tank LOL really ?not very clever ?

Rushing an Elefant sounds quite transparent though, i.e. you would be spending no fuel yet aggressively capping them. Not quite sure how I'd deal with it when it came out though. Thankfully I tend to go t2-t3, so I would at least be able to ram it

the game offers a wide variety in regards to the unit composition. add doctrines into the equation and that will change the play style more. what limits the way a game will evolve is soviets rushing to pick a doctrine as soon as possible. Soviet commanders offer a high number of tools what will have a great impact on the early to mid game. Late game abilities are also potent, but i don't think those are the ones that have a say in the matter when it comes to choosing a doctrine.
My biggest curiosity at the moment is: "what would be the course of a game if both players would play without choosing a doctrine?"

Most of my 1v1 games i play as ostheer, and recently i've been trying to delay choosing a commander for as long as possible. I've had 2-3 games during the last days where i manage to win without selecting any doctrine. I had a game recently where i was facing a heavy tier 2 clumped up soviet force. I had an army consisting in 3-4 grens, 1-2 pg, 1 mg etc and some p4. My opponent pushed and took the middle vp on kholodny summer and camped the point with 2 at guns 2 maxims and other infantry. As i didn't pick any doctrine, looking at what i had available in terms of unit composition i realized that if i went for jagger infantry for the Light Artillery Barrage will allow me to break his position.(my commander loadout consisted of: Jagger Infantry, Festung Armor and Spearhead Doctrine).

On another note, what contributes to the monotony when it comes to what types of units are called onto the battlefield, is the fact that there are some units that outperform others (i'm looking at two factors: the purpose of the unit and the amount of effort/micro/attention you need to invest in the respective unit in order to achieve the desired result ).


Other than that, i also have something else i would like to share with you guys:
Earlier today i had a friend visiting and he asked me to play some 1v1 games with certain constraints of his choosing.

First game on Pripyat Winter:
I had to build a mortar followed by an mg42 and a sniper as the first 3 units, i could not get flamer upgrade on my HT and the only vehicle i was allowed to build out of t3 and t4 was the Stug. Of course i had my ass handed to me but that's not the point. In any case it was an interesting experience.

Second game on Minsk Pocket:

I had to rely only on my t1 and t4 units, t2 and t3 not allowed. I have to say i kinda enjoyed it, as i built panthers and panzerwerfers, units that i didn't have the opportunity to use in 1v1 for quite a while. You can check this one out at: http://www.coh2.org/replays/5495/playing-with-constraints

What happened to creative teching and gameplay?

I think some of the lack of variety just has to deal with the weak soviet T3, and the extremely strong, all encompassing German T3. I don't think I have ever skipped T3 as the Germans, and there really isn't much point in delaying the SU-85 when it is the only tank that can reliably deal with a P4.

That being said, I love the early game diversity in Coh 2.

I think some of the lack of variety just has to deal with the weak soviet T3, and the extremely strong, all encompassing German T3. I don't think I have ever skipped T3 as the Germans, and there really isn't much point in delaying the SU-85 when it is the only tank that can reliably deal with a P4.

That being said, I love the early game diversity in Coh 2.

I pretty much agree with this. Other than commander units, it's a break the SU-85 game. There generally isn't a good reason for soviets to get anything else.

I keep thinking the meta will evolve and German players will just start skipping tier 3 to avoid being wrecked by SU-85s but I'm not seeing it yet.

Meta develops over time. I guarantee the optimum strategy right now is not what it will be if this patch remains for 3 months.

However, the optimal/most OP strategy for Soviets has already been found by VonIvan (thankfully, no one seems to be replicating it).

Also, a lot of people who like pushing metas are not playing at the moment.

I also skip T3 when playing as Soviet, though I think I'll stop doing that, after getting my ass handed to me last night. The German side didn't use any fuel and than came with a shitload of Tigers... I think I could've won if I pushed forward when I had the chance, but it seems to me T3 has more value than I suspected. Maybe getting the T34 as a call-in could be an alternative strategy as well.

Imo coh2 is all but predictable , ive sometimes lost games in last 2-3 minutes , in a blink of an eye and have been winning the whole games, and the opposite
Cant remember much games that are predictable (but that depends on the player) , and the game itself is very fun and enjoyable