SU-85; The Thread

I thought the PaK one-shotting was fixed in this patch?

"• Fix for scatter weapons targeting the team-weapon. Other weapons respect target priorities, so the rest of the spec rules are implicitly followed"

I assumed this fixed exactly that.

I saw much Pak-oneshotting yesterday.

SU85s are not OP at all in 1on1s now. Of course units with longer range are more effective in team games where everyone gets Elephants and ISUs.

The problem on team games is not only it's range.
It has range + armor + damage + speed
When the Russian side lines up 2-3 of these, the German side is completely denied on tanks.
SUs still reverse at the same speed a (considerably more expensive) Panther advances.
If you happen to flank it, it still endures a *lot* of shots before being killed, and as it reverses really fast, it will often escape danger safely. Combine this with the fact that it's relatively cheap, and you have an unstoppable spam of these things on team games. Elephants are doctrinal, much, much more expensive and come at the very late game.

The only real counter to SUs is a blob of PGrens w/ Panzerschreks. But if you do this, you basically make the life of the soviet player simple, as all he needs to counter now is a single type of unit - solved with 2 snipers or 1 KV-8.

@Nullist: you might be right, I actually overlooked this fix from the patch notes. I will test some more in-game. If this is fixed, then the Pak might become a viable SU counter, which helps a lot - but I still think that it denying every German tank on the field is wrong.

SU85s are not OP at all in 1on1s now. Of course units with longer range are more effective in team games where everyone gets Elephants and ISUs.

Please elaborate, regarding 1v1.

Just like to put my name down here for a vote to nerf the SU85s.

It is way too effective for its cost. Soviet players barely need resources at the beginning to rush them. They can even take out Panthers which cost way more and come way later. The only hard counter to SU85s is an elefant.

Probably the biggest issue with this is the effect on gameplay. Games should be more dynamic than SU85s appearing every single game. Likewise the only reason P4s show up nearly every single game is because they are the cheapest light counter to SUs. The issue just compounds itself.

Every high level game without fail there is SU85 spam. Usually coupled with sniper spam - the two most OP units on Soviet side. These units should not be this stupidly OP that spamming them both results in one of the hardest things to beat in this game. You should be punished hard (in terms of gameplay) for spamming units.

The 50% speed decrease when not focused is not enough. Even a cost increase would be suitable or a reload speed decrease.

Stug buffs may be the best way to laterally correct this imbalance.

Stug certainly needs them.

Stug buffs may be the best way to laterally correct this imbalance.

Stug certainly needs them.

It might work, although it would be a bit strange to have a Stug be able to counter a tank that a Panther can't counter.

It might work, although it would be a bit strange to have a Stug be able to counter a tank that a Panther can't counter.

Imo Stugs need to be brought to where 2 Stugs can reliably defeat a single SU85, frontally.

Panthers are alright, with the slight problem of SU85 rotation rate, which imo needs to be reduced a tad.

Im ok with SU85s being able to reverse out of a Panther flank, but not with them rotating as fast as they do, to take advantage of buggy circle pathing and heavy micro reliance to pull the circle off.

Reverse is ok, as the Panther can withdraw to avoid a mutual frontal facing chase which the SU85 wins hands down.
But all too often SU85 just rotates on the spot, soaking dmg, while waiting for the Panthers circle to bug on a pebble.

I hope you realize that SU-85 rusher is in deep trouble, if you actually don't rush a tank yourself. Discretion people!

Imo Stugs need to be brought to where 2 Stugs can reliably defeat a single SU85, frontally.

Panthers are alright, with the slight problem of SU85 rotation rate, which imo needs to be reduced a tad.

Im ok with SU85s being able to reverse out of a Panther flank, but not with them rotating as fast as they do, to take advantage of buggy circle pathing and heavy micro reliance to pull the circle off.

Reverse is ok, as the Panther can withdraw to avoid a mutual frontal facing chase which the SU85 wins hands down.
But all too often SU85 just rotates on the spot, soaking dmg, while waiting for the Panthers circle to bug on a pebble.

The idea about the Stugs makes sense.

I thinks there is still something quite off in the Panther x Su-85 engagement.
I understand that the SU-85 has a longer range, and can reverse itself out of trouble. That's the role of a Tank Destroyer.

What annoys me is that there is a clear cost x effectiveness problem here. Panthers are *much* more expensive than SUs, and are totally denied by them. What I think it should happen is that flanks have to be more rewarding. The way I see it, if a Panther flanks an SU, it should be able to destroy it on nearly all cases. What happens is the opposite, with the SU very high durability coupled with the high speed allowing it to always get out of danger, even when flanked.

I think the SU-85, retaining its current cost, has to be modeled after any of the Tank Destroyers of vCoH: either a "glass cannon" like a Marder 3 / G-Wagon / Sherman Firely, or something durable bit with reduced damage, like a Wolverine / Hellcat / Hetzer.

I hope you realize that SU-85 rusher is in deep trouble, if you actually don't rush a tank yourself. Discretion people!

That's relative. You mean that the SU-85 won't have any viable targets at all? Well, but you will still have 2 problems: (1) rushed SUs mean you are probably denied of non-doctrinal tanks, which is a huge problem for your strategy; and (2) even if you have no tanks of your own a fast SU-85 can still march into your base - unless you did some serious preparing with AT before it arrived.

Give the stug 60 range. Would solve all the problems imo.

SU-85 costs a tad more than a stug, sure, but it has much better hp, armor, armor pen and damage. This more than makes up for the cost difference. Neednt have more range than the stug as well.

Maybe insert a delay time 2-3 secs from when focus sight is de-activated until full speed is restored.

The Stug does not need buffs of any kind. I use them effectively very often in 1v1. They are fairly cheap and counter T34s remarkably well. The recent nerfs to the SU85 have really made them quite fair.

You cannot make Stugs too powerful because they come out of the same building as P4s and Ostwinds. It would make T3 a one stop shop for all your needs. The soviets when going T4 essentially gives up the T70/T34, which is a really big deal.

Comparing Stugs vs SU85s in a vacuum is just extremely short sighted when they each operate as part of a combined army and each hold a unique place in their respective tech trees.

The su85 is a one stop shop for anti armor, and that is a single unit, nevermind a single tier. SU76 and katyusha counters infantry, so russians have even more of a one stop shop hard counter everything in one tier. I wasn't comparing su85 and stug in a vacume, i was comparing them by their roles as tank destroyers within a larger army composition.

The su85 range and spotting is still a problem and its still easy to just reverse away after de-activating focus sight. They have the armor penetration of a panther(SU85 and panther both have 170 armor pen) SU85 has more armor than a p4 or a stug(180 compared to 160 for p4 and stug), while being faster than a stug with more hitpoints and costing the same as a p4.

SU85 also deals more damage than panthers since they reload significantly faster(4.25s vs 6.7s for panther). Seeing as they both do 160 damage per shot and have 170pen, it means that the su85 does ~58% more damage per second than a panther! Yes, gentlemen the 115 fuel su85 out classes a 170 fuel tank which primary role is also tank killing since panthers suck vs infantry. That's just too many perks for such a cheap unit in comparison. (Not to mention once they reach vet 2 lol!)

Now I know panthers have more armor and HP than the su85, but the SU-85 is shooting at p4's and stugs at the important stages of the game, not at panthers cos teching to panthers happens so rarely. SU85 still has 60 range when it de activates focus sight and can still shoot that far when reversing, given sight by friendly units/control points.

The range on the SU85 is 60, meaning it out ranges all german non doctrinals by 10 or 20 range. In practise this means they get off a shot or two extra, maybe more if they keep backing up. This only adds to why their damage is so significant. Even if you get spotting scopes, you are still gonna take a couple of hits before you are even in range to shoot back. Sure you can flank by driving around the other side of the map, but now you are taking a huge risk since your tanks will be very vulnerable to mines/at nades/ hidden zis/ button etc etc. Im not saying i dont want to flank, its just that i feel forced to flank while the russian can get away without flanking.

Stugs counter T34's all right that's true, but due to the parallel tiering of russians, they can get su85's out quick if they dont go for t3, while germans have to wait until 5 command points and 270 fuel for a reliable counter to it which is the slow doctrinal elefant. Germans need another way of dealing with su85 or people will still keep spamming them. The SU85 doesn't encourage creative flank-tactics, with combined-arms play. Instead it rewards camping with snipers, guards and 120mm mortars while not having real drawbacks/risks.

Either paks need to reliably counter them or stugs need a range increase, or SU85 needs a significant cost increase. SU-85 is still too good for its cost, and there isn't a german unit that forces creative flanking from the russians in the way that the su85 forces germans to do risky flanking maneuvers(at least until an elefant shows up which is slow as fuck and actually vulnerable to flanks since it cant just reverse away that quick).

Hello,

you really can't increase the costs of the Su85. It is the only real counter against P4 and also Panthers. If it comes later by higher costs,..sowjets have a real Problem. If there is a p4 or Ostwind, you can't do a shit. Or they need to buff the zis. And in 2vs2 or 3vs3 Sowjet really have a Problem with the call in tanks,..Elephant and tiger. If they came both,..nearly gg. No counter at all, because the call in Tanks on sowjet side really sucks in my eyes.

Those are different problems. Firstly i am referring to 1v1, since that is the most important imo. 2v2 Should be looked at as well but lets keep the discussion about 1v1.

Zis and paks need a buff in general that hasn't changed.

SU85 needs to counter the p4 and panther, ok fine.. and what counters the su85? the elefant(5cp and 270fuel)? Lol.

I'm always sad to see this thread necro-bumped every day with the same arguments repeated; has anyone actually read this thing or do you just see "SU-85" in the title and freak out and start posting like wildfire? I'm pretty sure the community agrees the SU-85 is powerful at the moment, time to put this baby to sleep. shhhh

I have been quite active in the thread since its start, and I agree some arguments are repeated and will keep being repeated unless the problem is fixed. If the discussion stops, it will indicate a tacit acceptance of the current meta, which is frankly not quite balanced yet regarding specifically the su85.

Arguments also evolve as players learn to play more, and are (hopefully) not just repeated blindly. The recent addition of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0 also helps a lot to understand the unit stats vs cost debacle.

The Stug does not need buffs of any kind. I use effectively very often in 1v1. They are fairly cheap and counter T34s remarkably well. The recent nerfs to the SU85 have really made them quite fair. You cannot make Stugs too powerful because they come out of the same building as P4s and Ostwinds. It would make T3 a one stop shop for all your needs. The soviets when going T4 essentially gives up the T70/T34, which is a really big deal. Comparing Stugs vs SU85s in a vacuum is just extremely short sighted when they each operate as part of a combined army and each hold a unique place in their respective tech trees.

Show me even one pro replay with effective Stugs.

Even ONE!

Do you accept challenge?

Hell, even a replay in which you feel you use Stugs effectively will do.