SU-85; The Thread

Also for those interested:

The SU85 had 45mm of sloped frontal armor at 30 degrees from vertical.(same as t34) If you do the trigonometric calcualtion (quite simple) it equates to the equivalent of 51.96 mm. straight/vertical plate armor.

The Stug III Ausf G by comparison had 80mm of frontal armor.

Add to this the fact that the Stug also had the same penetration as the SU-85. "STUG's used 7.5 cm StuK 40 L/48 gun. Firing above mentioned ammunition, longer L/48 could penetrate 96 mm (30 degrees from vertical)." - copied from wikipedia. Thus it could penetrate equivalent max of 110.85 mm straight/vertical plate armor if you do the calculation.(again easy trigonometrics)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StuG_III

The SU-85 used the d-5t 85mm gun. This gun could penetrate a maximum of 110mm straight/vertical plate armor. see this table: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.asp

The two vehicles thus had very similiar armor penetrating capabilities and ranges. The stug had a lot more armor though, but they could both penetrate each other(slightly easier to penetrate su-85) and the su-85 certainly didnt have more range than the stug.

It is thus quite ridiculous how much frontal armor the su85 has in the game compared to the stug which is penetrated so easily. I mean sure, they have to balance the game, but the stug is currently laughable compared to the su85, while in real life it was kindof the opposite.

it fails as everything

stug needs a range buff and a fuel decrease perhaps

I believe pquimesh said stug is working as intended in another thread. So..

I believe pquimesh said stug is working as intended in another thread. So..

Well he clarified that the StuGs accuracy isnt bugged as many people thought ( / hoped ).

Ok so latest patch they reduced stug's target size from 20 to 14. This is a 30% decrease in size. Thus, hopefully the su85 will have a harder time hitting the stug while at range. Let's see how this affects the metagame.

Read troglodyte's comments on the thread in the link below if you wanna know more about scatter/target sizes and accuracy. Scatter works in a cone, and the further away the target, the smaller part it fills in the cone. Thus Stug and su85 battles might play out differently than before.

Maybe a vet 2 stug will even beat a vanilla su85? Im definitely gonna try using stugs more, maybe in combination with either panzer tactitian or scopes.

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/1jam36/langreskaya_patch_with_patch_notes/

things i suggest
nerf su-85 so its armour is fucking horrible, and so it remains a behind-the-lines tank

buff stug so it can win 1v1. (if it can see and shoot it, fat chance for that happening)

read my post before where I listed some scatter values. SU85 has so low scatter values (angle and distance) I perdict it will still eat stugs alive.

regards
ace

read my post before where I listed some scatter values. SU85 has so low scatter values (angle and distance) I perdict it will still eat stugs alive.

regards
ace

Yes I did read your post in detail. The scatter angle is small yes, but maybe it will still miss the stug sometimes at long range? I havent been able to play yet, but i would love to see a vet 2 stug take on an su85 at long range..

EDIT: if i understand the scatter correctly, the su85 will scatter 7.5 max at long range. thus it can scatter from 0 to 7.5 on either side of the bullseye. Lets say the bullseye is middle of the stug. the stug has size 14 now. thus 7 units from middle to side. If the su85 scatters 7 or above it misses the stug. thus 1 in 15 chance it will miss the stug. Not much but its something..

My arguments might be totally wrong so please correct me if i miscalculated or something.

Best will still be to test it in game...

Also Ace, how did you access those values from the game files? How long is the SU-85's range? and How long is the Stug's range?

Would be great if some guys could do some testing, just let them shoot eachother at different distances to see how it plays out.

But doesn't have the stug have lower range than the su-85? So to get in range of the su85 the stug also has a much higher chance to get hit.

All of these 1v1 situations of Stug vs SU-85 will end up as dead Stug 99% of the time because the SU-85 will see the stug before the stug sees it. The SU-85 has more health, more range and more LOS.

But doesn't have the stug have lower range than the su-85? So to get in range of the su85 the stug also has a much higher chance to get hit.

Yes that's true, assaulting with the stug will be hard, I was thinking more in the lines of using the stug defensively and then when the su85 tries to push the battle starts. I have ranted a lot about the stupidity of su85 out ranging the stug, but lets leave that for now.

I wonder if hulling down a stug on pripiyat will be viable... Would be nice if hull down gave range too, at leat it gives rate of fire, accuracy and defensive buffs. Thing is stug wont be able to turn but that map has the chokepoints that could make it worth while.

The only times i have used stugs effectively vs su85's was when he tried to push and my stugs were waiting. That was pre-patch however..

Maybe when you try to assault with stugs, because the stug is moving the su85 will have an even harder time to hit it?

All of these 1v1 situations of Stug vs SU-85 will end up as dead Stug 99% of the time because the SU-85 will see the stug before the stug sees it. The SU-85 has more health, more range and more LOS.

Have you tried it since the reduced stug target size patch?

^
Still belive StuGs should get some sort of a "soft cloak" when hulled down.

Some sort of invisibility that forces you to get with something into lets say the range of 30, 40, 50 whatever to it.

This way you couldnt spot it with the (I)SU's scope alone but if you get any unit in actual fireing range you can spot it.

^
Still belive StuGs should get some sort of a "soft cloak" when hulled down.

Some sort of invisibility that forces you to get with something into lets say the range of 30, 40, 50 whatever to it.

This way you couldnt spot it with the (I)SU's scope alone but if you get any unit in actual fireing range you can spot it.

Yeah, would be sick, like the Germans used to camouflage it with its low profile. I really don't know why they just don't increase its range/LOS to equal that of the su85.

It is thus quite ridiculous how much frontal armor the su85 has in the game compared to the stug which is penetrated so easily. I mean sure, they have to balance the game, but the stug is currently laughable compared to the su85, while in real life it was kindof the opposite.

You bring up a good point. In other games Tank Destroyers are represented as glass cannons with weak armor and strong cannon. They've got range and and damage on their site but sacrifice mobility and durability.

Elephants and ISU-152 kinda follows that principle but the SU-85 is way too mobile. I also think that Elephants need a reduction of their front armor.

Mauser - Regardless of any points you bring to the table the SU-85 has more health, shoots the Stug before the stug even sees it and has a bigger health pool. In no situation other than a flat out flank from behind should a Stug beat a SU-85, patch or no patch. With the way scatter works even if the SU-85 has a miss it'll still hit the with a high percentage against the stug, small profile or not.

The stug hasn't been changed enough to make it viable it is still unviable to build one you might as well save for a PIV.

Mauser - Regardless of any points you bring to the table the SU-85 has more health, shoots the Stug before the stug even sees it and has a bigger health pool. In no situation other than a flat out flank from behind should a Stug beat a SU-85, patch or no patch. With the way scatter works even if the SU-85 has a miss it'll still hit the with a high percentage against the stug, small profile or not.

The stug hasn't been changed enough to make it viable it is still unviable to build one you might as well save for a PIV.

You might be right, I just, just wish the stug would be more viable. I am tired of always building p4 if i want to win. I like the p4 but i want to be able to build stugs on maps where i want to be more defensive. I agree that it probably needs a better buff than just a target size decrease, but i am not going to comment on wether the balance actually worked or not, until i have tried it in an actual game. Stug will at least come before the SU-85, giving it some time to vet up.

I would like to know exactly what "significantly reduces damage taken" means (this is vet 2 bonus). A vet 2 stug can be quite tough actually and killing a couple of those pesky m3's will help to vet it. It's questions like this that Makes me want to cry that the stat page was taken down. We really need an elaborate coh2 wiki with all the combat stats/commanders/unit stats and costs/bulletin stats etc etc.

the funny thing is that the T34/SU85 has reverse, the same speed as the PZ4/panther forward kinda weird