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russian armor

Comments on the July 10 Patch Notes!

11 Jul 2013, 15:33 PM
#61
avatar of Caeltos

Posts: 72

Unfortunately, there are even bigger issues here they need to pay attention to. Relic knows the casual player base of 3v3 and 4v4 "for fun" people, is huge.

As I see it, Soviet is now unplayable in 3v3 and 4v4 even WITH a strafe patch.

To have a chance of winning, Soviets must do far more coordination as a team than Ostheer does. This is because of how the teching system is designed. Ostheer always has a choice of support or infantry units early game, except for the oddball who skips T1 (a much rarer strat now) and thus any player can field units to counter the enemy.

This is not the case for Soviets. Some need to field support weapons, some need to use M3s and snipers to combat the German early game. This degree of coordination is not going to be found among casual players randomly playing 4v4. But it's the only way to play Soviets. It was passable before the Maxim was nerfed and the Ostheer MG given an extra crew member, which gave Soviets a strong early game presence, and if team tactics were used, nigh unbeatable by experienced teams (I happen to have one).

Maybe things will evolve so some people know to go support in certain positions, as was the case with Montargis in COH, but the game doesn't seem to make those choices obvious...

I don't want the patch reversed because I am a competitive player, and 1v1 and 2v2 are the best venues for competition. This patch has done a lot to balance the game. But I do want to see 3v3 and 4v4 remain viable.

I have only one radical suggestion...The only way to balance the game for casual, uncoordinated teams is to allow the use of both factions in automatch. I suggest automatch be reconfigured to allow for Soviet and German teams on the same side for THESE game modes only.


I don't want to be stepping on anyones toes, but I personally think that Soviets have it far better even in team games. Altho, my perspective on the matter is slightly bias, so to say- since I only play with people that I know, or are good players. But when we do, we do with a breeze, even against good competetion players. It might ultimately just boil down to good coordination & synergy with everyone, we just mesh really well together, and speak about what commanders/units we ought to get.

If there's any point to it, I would give out some friendly advice;
- Always get someone to grab an ISU-152 commander oriented doctrine. Be that from the low-level one, to the CE edition one. There's no real prefernce, the CE one is far more agressive oriented however, and can support other agressions via Mark Vehicle.

The ISU-152 is excellent at denying & applying pressure and disloding - let alone killing virtually just about anything. It's an extremely valuable asset to the team.

- Have someone get the either Guard Rifle Combined Arms // Conscript Support doctrine to be able to continous lay down the early-mid game pressure. The Conscript Support works well with another teammate that has more scaling potential towards mid-late game. The Guard Rifle is abit more flexible in overall utility, with the Howitzer in particular

- Grab someone with an IS-2 doctrine. Whilst people will argue the IS-2 is bad, it's an excellent meat-shield for the rest of your tanks. Let-alone, good spotter for your backline tanks. Not a neccasity, but a good bonus to a strengthen late-game comp.

- Katyushka for continous stalls. Let-alone, good for dealing with PaK43s and just holler down playstyle. Don't overcommit on them, and keep them sparse, you'll need the SU-85s.

I wanted to elaborate more on this, but I'll get to it later :-)
11 Jul 2013, 16:01 PM
#62
avatar of solidgamertv

Posts: 54

Love how Relic Devs are always in the forums answering questions. Keep it up Relic!
11 Jul 2013, 16:23 PM
#63
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 879

There seems to have been a rifle nade buff?

I don't know what's going on but one rifle nade just took down the church on Moscow with a full squad...With no prior mortar or nade hits.

Also lost 4 dudes to one nade, 5 dudes to another rifle nade in same match. They weren't particularly bunched up.

The crits in this game are just ridiculous. I dunno, this is starting to feel really, really funny.
11 Jul 2013, 16:47 PM
#64
avatar of franko

Posts: 41

Love how Relic Devs are always in the forums answering questions. Keep it up Relic!

Especially to reich cries on forum.
They nerfed russian infantry, leave OP strafing run and only counter for reich tanks is SU85, because ZiS is now with useless maxims and lol mortars.
Only valid doctrine in 1vs1 is HTD because you just need to spam consript untill T4 then you spam SU85
Really funny game...
11 Jul 2013, 16:58 PM
#65
avatar of solidgamertv

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2013, 16:47 PMfranko

Especially to reich cries on forum.
They nerfed russian infantry, leave OP strafing run and only counter for reich tanks is SU85, because ZiS is now with useless maxims and lol mortars.
Only valid doctrine in 1vs1 is HTD because you just need to spam consript untill T4 then you spam SU85
Really funny game...


Takes time to balance a game. If it was so easy we all would be balance designers. Just be happy they are trying to balance the game and will continue to balance years to come. Even a game like Starcraft 2 which has been out for 3 years now is still not balanced.
11 Jul 2013, 17:03 PM
#66
avatar of OnkelSam
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 1582 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2013, 16:47 PMfranko

Especially to reich cries on forum.

Wait for the next tournament event to see how OP Ostheer is... the TFN tourney had far more soviet wins than ostheer wins, so it is just fine they nerved soviets for now
11 Jul 2013, 17:16 PM
#67
avatar of Funkeh

Posts: 77

I still feel like the tournament was played before the Ostheer started to counter the Soviet play. There were obviously some things out of wack, but it was not un-winnable.

That said, the gren-spamming from Germans, into PIVs is not exactly an exciting metagame either... :P

BTW, does HTD still stack with cover modifiers? I wish they would hotfix that and the Assault Support Commander's Strafe (sound like a broken record I know).
2 of 2 Relic postsRelic 11 Jul 2013, 19:30 PM
#68
avatar of pqumsieh
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 267 | Subs: 8

Both HTD and Strafe are getting addressed next patch.
11 Jul 2013, 19:52 PM
#69
avatar of solidgamertv

Posts: 54

Both HTD and Strafe are getting addressed next patch.


Awesome was wondering about this.
11 Jul 2013, 20:06 PM
#70
avatar of Weehamish

Posts: 12

Love how Relic Devs are always in the forums answering questions. Keep it up Relic!


You paid to say this lol? ..................
11 Jul 2013, 20:08 PM
#71
avatar of Weehamish

Posts: 12



Awesome was wondering about this.


Strafe is only powerful on large maps on 1 ammo dump maps its useless really 120 ammo is hard to spam! On 4x ammo dump maps and when u can build ammo safely it can get a bit OP specially defending VPS, but wtf else do germans have vrs shock spam? they rape everything but tanks! And we know what happens when you roll out tanks vrs SU 85s :\

HTD is a op but if u have a tank near by you can crush all the men as it has a CD for them to get back up. It does however need a nerf vrs MG fire as they can sit infront of MGs and rape them, also they rape PGs in seconds, PGs need a health boost if anything.
11 Jul 2013, 20:12 PM
#72
avatar of Hissy

Posts: 176

Where is Pqumsieh's icon!
12 Jul 2013, 17:58 PM
#73
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

The people use much the ht-fire to win the position of dispute. I like Soviet, to win the position I have to take more units at the beginning. In comparison there is a downside. Well... this is my opinion, good job guys.
12 Jul 2013, 18:35 PM
#74
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

Very good patch overall.

I don't mind if the Moirtar Ht remain untouched, it is after all: an insant call in. Better survivability than a regular mortar, far more mobility. Incendiary rounds. It sort of balances out a little bit.

As for strafing run and HTD, patience. They said its coming.
12 Jul 2013, 19:06 PM
#75
avatar of TychoCelchuuu
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 1620 | Subs: 2

There seems to have been a rifle nade buff?

I don't know what's going on but one rifle nade just took down the church on Moscow with a full squad...With no prior mortar or nade hits.

Also lost 4 dudes to one nade, 5 dudes to another rifle nade in same match. They weren't particularly bunched up.

The crits in this game are just ridiculous. I dunno, this is starting to feel really, really funny.

This stuff happened before the patch too, particularly the building stuff.
12 Jul 2013, 20:27 PM
#76
avatar of rtschutter

Posts: 8

Buildings are definitely really weird in CoH2. Units seem pretty much invincible inside buildings until it randomly collapses. I think I remember reading somewhere that they are looking into buildings though right now.
12 Jul 2013, 20:38 PM
#77
avatar of Funkeh

Posts: 77

Both HTD and Strafe are getting addressed next patch.


Cools :)
12 Jul 2013, 22:49 PM
#78
avatar of UGBEAR

Posts: 954

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2013, 15:33 PMCaeltos


I don't want to be stepping on anyones toes, but I personally think that Soviets have it far better even in team games. Altho, my perspective on the matter is slightly bias, so to say- since I only play with people that I know, or are good players. But when we do, we do with a breeze, even against good competetion players. It might ultimately just boil down to good coordination & synergy with everyone, we just mesh really well together, and speak about what commanders/units we ought to get.

If there's any point to it, I would give out some friendly advice;
- Always get someone to grab an ISU-152 commander oriented doctrine. Be that from the low-level one, to the CE edition one. There's no real prefernce, the CE one is far more agressive oriented however, and can support other agressions via Mark Vehicle.

The ISU-152 is excellent at denying & applying pressure and disloding - let alone killing virtually just about anything. It's an extremely valuable asset to the team.

- Have someone get the either Guard Rifle Combined Arms // Conscript Support doctrine to be able to continous lay down the early-mid game pressure. The Conscript Support works well with another teammate that has more scaling potential towards mid-late game. The Guard Rifle is abit more flexible in overall utility, with the Howitzer in particular

- Grab someone with an IS-2 doctrine. Whilst people will argue the IS-2 is bad, it's an excellent meat-shield for the rest of your tanks. Let-alone, good spotter for your backline tanks. Not a neccasity, but a good bonus to a strengthen late-game comp.

- Katyushka for continous stalls. Let-alone, good for dealing with PaK43s and just holler down playstyle. Don't overcommit on them, and keep them sparse, you'll need the SU-85s.

I wanted to elaborate more on this, but I'll get to it later :-)



Just for the JS-2, I completely disagree your point that "It's an excellent Meat Shield"

Let's compare it to a Tiger Tank
here's the table

Tiger I vs. IS-2
Health:
1280 vs 960


Armor:
350/250 vs 375/225


GunDamage(alpha)
160 vs 160


Penetration:
154 vs 140


Reload
6.25 vs 9(?LOL?)


Scatter Max
6.8 vs 7.5


AOE
1.25 vs 2.5


Costs:
600/250 vs 680/300


Special bonus for Tiger: 1 in 5 chance for a 5 second crew shocked critical on target deflections

Special bonus for IS-2:* 1 in 6 chance of 5 second crew shocked
* 25% of the shell’s damage is applied non-penetrating(160*25%=40)

Discussion:

Unit-Wise:
JS-2 Advantages: Only 25 more Frontal Armor, better Scatter (1 times more), 40HP damage granted damage if target ricochets.

JS-2 Disadvantages: 80/50 fuel More expensive than the Tiger Tank, fires 31.25& slower than the tiger, but they both has same Alpha damge(160HP/hit),140Pen(JS-2) vs 154 Pen (Tiger)( there's a catch in Pen, I'll bit*ching about it later).

Faction wise:
Oppel-Blitz+Strafing run Cheese Kommandant has a Tiger tank, by the fuel bonus of the well-balanced, perfectly fine Oppel-Blitz truck,you can get the Tiger without not much of a problem.

Spear-head doctrine commander, has a Somke+Tiger I combo, smoke disrupts Guard Vehicle, and makes enemy tanks unable to shoot the target, it's very powerful (yes I could say that is OP), makes the Tiger even harder to kill.

meanwhile, JS-2 comes with the shock rifle, which is a good doctrine, but the Shock troops has been nerfed a lot, and it's not really a cheese commander at any time,

Armor assault has a JS-2 as well, and you can combo it with auto-repair, but the other ability sucks bad......and it's a pay-for commander

Something about the Penetration:
For Tiger: tiger has 100% guaranteed penetration vs. T-34/76&T-34/85(both 120 frontal armor)
Tiger has a 85.6% chance pen SU-85's frontal armor(180), meanwhile Su-85 has 45.6% pen rate vs Tiger tank(350)
meanwhile JS-2 loss to 2 PZIV or Single Tiger for plenty of combat.........


For ranked game, you can see a tiger in 2v2+ almost every single game, and when did you saw the JS-2 last time?





discussion:
All soviet Tank has been scaled down except JSU-152&Su-85 is due to the "ram" ability, dev want all soviet players use Ram as a Counter too axis armor and meanwhile making almost all soviet tank overpriced for it's combat capabilities.

suggestion
Tweak the Ram, something like make it to Vet 1 unlock, and improve the JS-2 & T-34 series both penetration,and price tweak,

JS-2: Call-in only available while player have the T3 or T4 building
Price Reduced From 680/300 to 580/215 as previous.
Alpha rise from 160(same as PZIV&Tiger) to 180, but maintains a slower rof
Penetration rise from 140 to 154(as tiger but inferior to panther)


Tiger tank: Reduce price from 600/250 to 560/210, but requires player either Build T3 building or Reaches battle stage 4.

T-34 series: Ram become a Vet 1 unlock (or change the ram to override)

Armor rise from 120 to 145~150

T-34/76. Penetration rise from 75(lol) to 100~105 (still inferior to PZIV)

damage rise from 80 to 120 (PZIV has 160 damage)
(comment: make T-34/76 feels like a Cromwell in T-34/76, it stands a chance vs. armor, but did I ever heard about a sober player whine about Cromwell being OP?)


T-34/85. Call-in only available when player builds either T3 or T4 structure. And call-in becomes a single call-in (720/260 per pack is absurd)

Penetration rise from 110 to 150(inferior to Tiger(154) and Panther(170) but better than PZIV 110)

reload decreased from 8.45 to 7.0 (still inferior to PZIV 5.75 and still the same alpha 160 damage/hit)

(comment: a bigger soviet-PZIV, an intermediate of PZIV and Panther tank just like in real-life)



conclusion: JS-2 is a waste of an huge investment. So does T-34/76&T-34/85,tweak the ram, make soviet tanks feel like TANK




Thoughts? Call me a fanboy if you wish
12 Jul 2013, 23:12 PM
#79
avatar of TheDGN

Posts: 65

Tiger I vs. IS-2
Health:
1280 vs 960


Armor:
350/250 vs 375/225


GunDamage(alpha)
160 vs 160


Penetration:
154 vs 140


Reload
6.25 vs 9(?LOL?)


Scatter Max
6.8 vs 7.5


AOE
1.25 vs 2.5


Costs:
600/250 vs 680/300


Your stats are great but they don't list range which isn't close.
12 Jul 2013, 23:14 PM
#80
avatar of UGBEAR

Posts: 954

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2013, 23:12 PMTheDGN


Your stats are great but they don't list range which isn't close.


both are 40
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