Ostheer in a bad spot ?

My main gripes with Ostheer are:

- 4 man grenadier squads suffer too much from RNG wipes from explosive weapons. It's much easier to get a nice core of vet3 main infantry with the other factions than it is with Ostheer. I think grens should be 5 man squads instead of 4 man squads, with appropriate stat adjustments to make the unit as combat effective as it is now.

- Brumbar is a bad unit. Its accuracy is sub-par and it has no other redeeming qualities. A panzerwerfer is a cheaper and better choice in 99% of gameplay scenarios.

- Prostruppen spam is slightly too effective.

Your point about grens is spot on

Panthers, rocket artillery, T3 tanks that are solid all round with useful vet (looking at you T-34/76).

The best AI sniper, AT gun and MG, solid mainline infantry with rifle nades/LMG's that require no upgrades.

Also probably the best doctrines reaction wise in the game.

Really the amount of times my opponent has been on top but you can doctrinally shit out a Command PIV/Tiger/Puma/TA has saved me on multiple occasions. I can't really say the same for brits with the Valentine, Sexton or AVRE


The downsides to Ost is no shock light tank of your own and 4 man squads which make the early game rough unless you are playing vs UKF. But they are anything but weak right now

Basically just going to reiterate what everyone else has said.

1. Brumbar is bad. Everyone can see what it's SUPPOSED to do, but it's horrible at it. I'd increase AoE a little, and possibly increase shell speed so it actually hits more than once every 500 games when auto-firing, and give it a 'hold fire' button. Wasn't aware it triggered counter-barrage, but that's gotta be fixed as well.

2. Grens need late-game scaling. They're 240mp for 4 models (60 each) with an insane 30mp/model replace. This means that when you lose one model, you're not only paying more to replace it than any other main-line infantry, but each loss contributes a larger impact in unit performance (25%, 33%, 50% vs. 16%, 20%, 25%, 33%, 50% for rifles). Also, less models means the unit sticks closer together, meaning higher chance of getting AOE'd.

3. Ostwind could really use a buff. The centaur is just better in every way, regardless of the slight cost difference.

slightly on the backfoot with infantry but thats due to the dual lmg for riflemen and tommies. against soviets, grens and pzgrens are still superior. rather than grens, WFA weapon racks are the real problem and cancer to infantry combat.

grens can do with a slight reinforce cost reduction to 26 but thats about it, they are very effective and capable line infantry with lmg42, cover and rifle grenades.

great tank options and powerful support teams, whats not to like for this faction? like the soviets, their mid game is pretty much good positioning of support teams and good battlefield sense.

mg42 + grens is your bread and butter tactic against any playstyle, be in infantry hordes of rifles/tommies or static lines of hmg and mortars.

a good wehr is still far more frustrating to fight against than okw as allies.

I've posted this in another thread, so I'm gonna quote myself:


Ost is behind because they need about 1 minute to put the first fighting unit on the field because Pios have to build T1 and only then they can bring Grens on the field, a squad with only 4 man that is only good behind cover and in long range.

Because of the time needed, many Allied players put their squads into choke point buildings where it is very hard for Ost to get them out because either you have to spend mun for a flamer (no teller mine against light tank rush) or get a mortar (even less capping power). Getting a fast MG is imo the only viable solution, but the capping power still is very low.

Sov: Can get conscripts from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
USF: Can get rifles from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
OKW: Can get volks from T0 at the first second (main battle unit) + Start with Sturmpios
UKF: Starts with a IS squad (main battle unit) and can get the second from T0 at the first second
Ost: Starts with Pios (weak unit with little fighting potential) and needs T1 to get the main battle unit

While Ost gets the first grens, all other factions usually have at least 2 squads of their main battle units, which are simply better in the early game (rifles, infantry sections) or have a higher amount of soldiers (2x conscripts vs 1x grens is 12 men vs 4).

The Ostheer is always about a minute or two behind and their single purpose is to react, making it by far the most defensive faction in the game right now (disregarding UKF sim city). There is very little room for Ost to pressure the opponent unless you are clearly playing better. The lack of Ostheer's close combat unit (Pzgrens come too late and can't engage because of high lethality) and no light tank makes them even more defensive.

I like that playstyle very much myself, but with the introduction of the British ultra sim city commander, Ost plays against a more aggressive faction that has also better defensives, leaving little to no space for counters. A mortar loses badly against a mortar pit which can be repaired automatically and braced. A well placed bofors can only reliably countered by a mortar HT which is only available in 2 commanders, from which one sucks and the other one is premium (spearhead).

The MGs, the real backbone of the Ostheer (not the grens IMO) are simply put out of the game against the helms deep commander that is defensive/aggressive at the same time because of counter artillery and mortar pits, both with immense range. The same thing happens with your Paks, leaving the Ost player no reliable counter against british tanks except StuGs (but then you can't counter the superior British inf). If the Brit manages to cover two VPs with his Mortar and Bofors, then it is extremely hard to do anything as Ostheer.

So in my opinion Ostheer vs that particular Brit pay2win commander is the hardest setup right now.

when people say cromwell is better than p4 LOL

I think there's a variation of opinion based on skill?

Ostheer have problems with the early game, as Highfiveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee mentioned, their mid game is weak due to a lack of a light tank (although double 222s seem to work ok??) and they only begin to pick up with the early late game with a strong T3.

Ostheer really aren't in a bad spot, you just can't spam MGs or use grenadiers like rifle blobs.

Some of the best commanders for Ostheer have the command P4.
Mobile Defense is good when you're getting fucked because the puma can help chase light tanks (and Ostruppen call in can be good to get more field presence).
Mechanized doctrine is great with spotting scopes/stuka smoke.
Blitzkrieg doctrine is great w/ panzer tactician.

I think ostheer are not bal, need fix sniper, maybe somthing do with t4 a little. Maybe need a little change phase teching. The problem are not with Ostheer, but with some moments with brits, merica and a little maxim spam.

Sov: Can get conscripts from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
USF: Can get rifles from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
OKW: Can get volks from T0 at the first second (main battle unit) + Start with Sturmpios
UKF: Starts with a IS squad (main battle unit) and can get the second from T0 at the first second
Ost: Starts with Pios (weak unit with little fighting potential) and needs T1 to get the main battle unit

While Ost gets the first grens, all other factions usually have at least 2 squads of their main battle units, which are simply better in the early game (rifles, infantry sections) or have a higher amount of soldiers (2x conscripts vs 1x grens is 12 men vs 4).

that is a good point/argument.
i personally have no problem that the base infantry squad is tied to t1 and needs to be built before available, but for compensation of this, at least a weak starting unit is necessary(one osttruppensquad maybe).

another thhing i totaly agree with is the "four-model-squad-policy". it's outdated. i had hard times when reading in former patchnotes "...blabla..bla...to bring unit-x-y-z in line with...blablabla.

when people say cromwell is better than p4 LOL

Why? Coz its much better and somewhat cheaper?

I think wongtp makes a good point about weapon racks. Even though I still have concerns about small squad sizes, when they were going up against soviet conscripts, before WFA, they were more or less fine. But with the weapon racks, two things happen; not only are now up against opponents that outnumber them, but also at least equal them in firepower.

On top of this, all the LMG's radically speed up the pace of the engagement, which means the player has less time to react to a situation going bad. And realistically, you have hit retreat when down to 2 models, in case you lose one on retreat. So the grens end up having no staying power, little field presence, and feed vet to the opponent while gaining little themselves.

All of that, combined with the fact that one bad mortar round, or an unlucky mine, or a tank shot while bunched at a doorway, can wipe them, means it seems increasingly difficult for Ost infantry to gain and retain veterancy, and I think it is this ultimately that undermines them.

...

another thhing i totaly agree with is the "four-model-squad-policy". it's outdated. i had hard times when reading in former patchnotes "...blabla..bla...to bring unit-x-y-z in line with...blablabla.

That's interesting. This was mentioned by several posts here. Indeed, it seems to be some valid point.

In COH1 the smaller German squads had a health bonus in order to compensate for the smaller squad size. Now in COH2 all squad members throughout all nations have the same health with the effect that smaller squads much more often suffer wipes and therefore require above average micro or, in consequence of a wipe, more menpower while losing precious xp.

4-model squads combined with more health per model AND veterancy that was universal rather than specific to the squad meant that they were less likely to go down, and even if they did you didn't lose vet. Neither of these things carried over to CoH2, which makes the small size much more of a liability than it was in CoH1.

Ost needs ability to make better defenses for their troops.

Allow PzGrens to build green cover.

Sov: Can get conscripts from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
USF: Can get rifles from T0 at the first second (main battle unit)
OKW: Can get volks from T0 at the first second (main battle unit) + Start with Sturmpios
UKF: Starts with a IS squad (main battle unit) and can get the second from T0 at the first second
Ost: Starts with Pios (weak unit with little fighting potential) and needs T1 to get the main battle unit

While Ost gets the first grens, all other factions usually have at least 2 squads of their main battle units, which are simply better in the early game (rifles, infantry sections) or have a higher amount of soldiers (2x conscripts vs 1x grens is 12 men vs 4).

the wehr compensate their slow early game by having sniper, mg, and mortar.

Why? Coz its much better and somewhat cheaper?

Not really.

One is faster and slightly more accurate, other is better armored, reloads slightly faster and have advantage in MGs and vet.

If anything, they are comparable with slight advantage to P4.

Not really.

One is faster and slightly more accurate, other is better armored, reloads slightly faster and have advantage in MGs and vet.

If anything, they are comparable with slight advantage to P4.

Cromwell is cheaper, is 50% more accurate on the move on top of having higher base accuracy, extremely good at crushing, faster (and gets ludicrously fast with vet), has a smaller target size than any other medium tank, comes at a significantly lower tech cost, has nondoctrinal smoke, and has a gun that's noticeably better at penetrating other medium tanks.

P4 starts to come into its own only after vet 2, and that's only against other medium vehicles and infantry AT weapons. Cromwell is by far the superior vehicle for cost.

You cant be serious, Katitof is never wrong.

I've posted this in another thread, so I'm gonna quote myself:


Ost is behind because they need about 1 minute to put the first fighting unit on the field because Pios have to build T1 and only then they can bring Grens on the field, a squad with only 4 man that is only good behind cover and in long range.

Because of the time needed, many Allied players put their squads into choke point buildings where it is very hard for Ost to get them out because either you have to spend mun for a flamer (no teller mine against light tank rush) or get a mortar (even less capping power). Getting a fast MG is imo the only viable solution, but the capping power still is very low.

Not true at all.

Ost got their first 2 units at the same time as other factions.



Now if you don't like building a HMG42 first, it is your problem because the game is designed like that. Myself I also would like to build 1 RM strait to Lt and then 1 HMG.50 but guess what, my opponent has already 6 units on the field by that time so I'm stuck in a unique BO 3/4 RM start or spam RE.

Skipping HMG42 is a BO option and its works, early Ostruppen spam works, going sniper as 3rd unit works (if you're confident in your sniper micro skill). Not to forget AssGren exists and it is always possible to call 1 squad first with the commander. And last but not least, 2 HMG42 / Pioneers into fast T2 Pzgren works as well on certain maps.

In fact, Ostheer is the faction with the most various opening available. And except for the sniper one, none of them put you behind in term of capping power.

Cromwell is cheaper, is 50% more accurate on the move on top of having higher base accuracy, extremely good at crushing, faster (and gets ludicrously fast with vet), has a smaller target size than any other medium tank, comes at a significantly lower tech cost, has nondoctrinal smoke, and has a gun that's noticeably better at penetrating other medium tanks.

P4 starts to come into its own only after vet 2, and that's only against other medium vehicles and infantry AT weapons. Cromwell is by far the superior vehicle for cost.

Amen brother.