USF African American RETs

pretty sure that will not happen.

Actually it would. It has become ridiculous in the US and the PC Police are out in droves. Its gotten to the point where people go after books, blog posts, tv shows....they would go after a game in a heart beat if they knew about it. Sadly people lack the education and the discipline to understand history these days nor do people understand context.

Side note: it would be cool if they made the American Army more diverse in the same terms as the British, Russians, Germans. The Germans have Ostruppen that represent their Eastern Allies why couldn't the Americans have a 442nd Combat Team call in?

I remember a documentation that most afro americans were deployed in Pioneer batallions to build stuff etc, would be historical but political incorrect

I totally disagree that including black characters in a historically plausible way is politically incorrect. Thats essentially the same as saying any film about slavery is politically incorrect.

It happened, nobody is saying it was right.


That said, as others mentioned, its understandable that they removed the black RETs as races in general are under represented in the game so to randomly include black RET squads as the soul attempt at showing racial diversity during the war is clumsy to say the least.

When politicial correctness reaches a Ww2 game. In reality Blacks were heavily discriminated in the American society and army. (Some exclusions like the Red tails but even that screams for racism because puttIng a unit together just on Skin color?)
Are osttruppen properly Modelled with east/slavic faces?

What you are seeing is the product of segregation, a subset of discrimination. In that sense units like the Tuskeegee airmen is part of the same, not an exception.

African Americans were drafted like everyone else, and many enlisted, like everyone else. But they filled more than their share of the support personnel like transportation and grave digging. But some combat units were formed like the 333rd Field Artillery Battalion that served with the 101st at Bastogne, the 332nd Fighter Group (the Red Tails), and the 78th, 758th and 761st Tank Battalions.

The combat units I think shared an interesting history. They were often put together for political reasons ("we have to have some black units to help keep the black population patriotic and pro-war effort, etc. etc.") but held out of combat longer than white units because there were suspicions of their ability to fight. But they often consisted of a higher caliber, on average, of men than the regulear white combat units. These combat units were rarer, and white soldiers could volunteer for the Airborne, Rangers, Mountain, etc. And the units were often held back from combat until well after they were formed they had years of training. When combat losses made the need for trained and equipped units a priority and they were finally sent into combat they performed very well.

I totally disagree that including black characters in a historically plausible way is politically incorrect. Thats essentially the same as saying any film about slavery is politically incorrect.

It happened, nobody is saying it was right.


That said, as others mentioned, its understandable that they removed the black RETs as races in general are under represented in the game so to randomly include black RET squads as the soul attempt at showing racial diversity during the war is clumsy to say the least.

Could you just imagine what Relic would have done with the Soviet campaign if they specifically modeled Mongolian/Siberian units? (Shudder)

Actually it would. It has become ridiculous in the US and the PC Police are out in droves. Its gotten to the point where people go after books, blog posts, tv shows....they would go after a game in a heart beat if they knew about it. Sadly people lack the education and the discipline to understand history these days nor do people understand context.

Side note: it would be cool if they made the American Army more diverse in the same terms as the British, Russians, Germans. The Germans have Ostruppen that represent their Eastern Allies why couldn't the Americans have a 442nd Combat Team call in?

I think for multiplayer they should just add a chance for RE's and tank crews to be black and give the USF squads more regional accents. It would make more sense for the 442nd's story to be a campaign, I think making them a call-in just for the fact that they're Asian is kinda dumb.

Actually it would. It has become ridiculous in the US and the PC Police are out in droves. Its gotten to the point where people go after books, blog posts, tv shows....they would go after a game in a heart beat if they knew about it. Sadly people lack the education and the discipline to understand history these days nor do people understand context.

Side note: it would be cool if they made the American Army more diverse in the same terms as the British, Russians, Germans. The Germans have Ostruppen that represent their Eastern Allies why couldn't the Americans have a 442nd Combat Team call in?

Heck, not just the 442nd (a unit made up of all Japanese American soldiers and immortalized in the movie "Go For Broke"). Why not model the voices after the Paragon Plattoon (Paragon Pictures) with Brooklyn, Midwest, Texan, Southern, etc. accents?

Actually it would. It has become ridiculous in the US and the PC Police are out in droves. Its gotten to the point where people go after books, blog posts, tv shows....they would go after a game in a heart beat if they knew about it. Sadly people lack the education and the discipline to understand history these days nor do people understand context.

Side note: it would be cool if they made the American Army more diverse in the same terms as the British, Russians, Germans. The Germans have Ostruppen that represent their Eastern Allies why couldn't the Americans have a 442nd Combat Team call in?

but PC police is just a small loud dickheads part of America. there wouldnt be an outcry, it would be a yammering.

Political correctness is nothing more than censorship. I am surprised this whole thread hasn't been censored already, but for the fact that it is politically correct.

pretty sure that will not happen.

I'm working in an IT company. We develop spam filters for emails and anti virus software.
We have a blacklist (for mails from an address that will be filtered all the time) and a whitelist (for mails that won't be filtered ever).

There was a big uproar from our US sales partners because the term "blacklist" is racist. No joke.

The reason for this is actually really simple:

There are no black face models.
All currently existing face models look 'caucasian'.
I guess that's why Relic abandoned the suppossedly 'black sounding' REs. To avoid yet another inconsistency. And out of laziness to actually create new face models :/

I'm working in an IT company. We develop spam filters for emails and anti virus software.
We have a blacklist (for mails from an address that will be filtered all the time) and a whitelist (for mails that won't be filtered ever).

There was a big uproar from our US sales partners because the term "blacklist" is racist. No joke.

interesting.

when The Pacific aired, there were many disgruntled americans who thought it was disrespectful to the marines etc etc. but they went largely ignored because the larger public is ok with the fact that their soldiers aren't saints and that war takes worst out of people.

also, the only black soldier appeared on The Pacific was a dead soldier on a landing beach. there wasn't any uproars.

Getting African-American face variations would be pretty simple. There's already animation state support available to make a model switch faces, rather than using randomized ones.

One technical problem is that whenever an African-American squad recaptures a gun, the portrait and speech would be reset to the default white version of that weapon crew. Since weapon recapture squads are nation based, not squad based, Relic would've had to redo that system to make the recapturing squad change portrait and speech codes accordingly.

Then there's the sensitivity issue, which was probably the most likely cause of cutting the unit.

To do the unit justice, you can't have them be an inexperienced combat ineffective builder unit. Rear Echelon African-American troops were being brought up to the front line and reorganized into Provisional Rifle Platoons to replace combat losses within the infantry battalions of armored divisions. This means they would've been organized into proper rifle squads and equipped with M1 Rifles, not carbines. Also being Rear Echelon doesn't necessarily mean they were all builders, so making them engineers wouldn't have fit; rear echelon covers a huge number of jobs, like clerks, tailors, kitchen staff, and so on.

All of them were combat trained, so at most the provisional rifle units were inexperienced. They proved to be determined and enthusiastic, since they wanted to prove their worth now that they finally had a chance to do so. But now we're left with a unit that's no different than a regular rifle squad in terms of gameplay. Changing them into weak builder units would've looked insensitive (and also historically inaccurate).


Oh, and the Osttruppen unit is not meant to represent German allies (like Romanians and Hungarians). It's a unit formed from Russian volunteers and former Soviet POWs that were given a chance to escape the slow rot of a POW camp. Most of them were also given rear echelon or rear area security duties since the German officers (correctly) doubted their morale. When Ost units began deserting and surrendering en masse in France, one German general said (from my own memory) "We're expecting a lot if we're asking Russians to fight for Germany in France against Americans".

Black troops played a significant role in the Ardennes and I would be proud to see them represented in COH2. Maybe as some of the
tank crews,
infantry,
Artillery or in support of Airborne.


Even if it was just the Rear Echelon it would still be SOME representation of these brave men's contribution to the war. If trolls want to make racist remarks about them in-game... well they make racist remarks regardless so I don't really see the issue.

good point...i try to always type GG HF at beginning of every game and am often greeted with Sig Heil, Heil Hitler, etc when I am vs Axis (caveat: almost always this is in big team games...1v1 opponents are not a problem so basically the trolls reside in big team games).

Because this is a small game compared to some of the heavy hitting titles they could probably escape notice as this isn't a casual gamer title. But the Gamer Gate fiasco has brought Social Justice Warriors out in full force to try to police all manners of games and there is no room with them for higher order thought or nuance; it's all black and white so their conclusion would probably be along lines of: Ermagerd! Relic thinks blacks are only good for being builders and repair men....it's just like slavery!
Historical accuracy won't matter one bit.

Because this is a small game compared to some of the heavy hitting titles they could probably escape notice as this isn't a casual gamer title. But the Gamer Gate fiasco has brought Social Justice Warriors out in full force to try to police all manners of games and there is no room with them for higher order thought or nuance; it's all black and white so their conclusion would probably be along lines of: Ermagerd! Relic thinks blacks are only good for being builders and repair men....it's just like slavery!
Historical accuracy won't matter one bit.

Remember the racism scandal of Borderlands 2: Tiny Tina?, just because she talked "funny" it was considered to be racist towards black people who use "Ghetto slang" in their speech, so they removed those "offending lines from her dialogue, just not to make anyone feel bad about it anymore..."

As an American there is a good deal of concern about how Black people are portrayed that is fairly shared by other Americans. While the "PC everything" crowd is well over the top, using African American sounds on RE's only is risky. Keep in mind until the late 60's murdering of individuals who even associated with black people was relatively common in some parts of the states, and latent racism is not only still present but extremely potent. You need only look at our news about the amount of black men killed by police yearly to understand how ingrained our racism remains. Our first black president was yelled at during a national televised speech, in front of both houses of Congress, that he was a liar in the middle of the speech, by a southern Republican, who was then deluged by funding from supporters for this act, to get an idea of how deep our racism goes.

As a result it is easier to not stir the pot, and therefore place these sound files to the side. This is not to say black men (and women on the home front) did not serve bravely, some in the worst conditions of the war, but in a game where it might come across as bothersome to some people better just to avoid the whole thing.

If I could add them to my game I gladly would, but I would find it very hard for companies to risk getting in hot water just to add sound files.

but PC police is just a small loud dickheads part of America. there wouldn't be an outcry, it would be a yammering.

The PC Police are much larger than you think. The fact that Companies are "Scared" of the backlash just by putting something in a game is evident enough. There is no freedom anymore. Its one thing to boycott a game because of how you feel its another to use lawsuits, threats, riots (To many of these lately) to intimidate a company into hiding from an issue to avoid controversy.

On a Personal note I think if no one is offended then no one is questioning. If no one is questioning is anyone really thinking. Then the question is asked, if everyone is thinking the same is anyone thinking at all? Sorry just my inner writer coming out lol


IN ANY CASE: Diversity would be cool for the American Army. Different voices from different regions, would love to have a Lt. from Boston and some Tank crew from GA with Paratroopers from MidWest.

In all fairness, due to the way that minorities have been denigrated in the United States, riflemen should be portrayed by African American and Latino models to compensate for their lack of acknowledgment and achievement in the war effort.

In all fairness, due to the way that minorities have been denigrated in the United States, riflemen should be portrayed by African American and Latino models to compensate for their lack of acknowledgment and achievement in the war effort.

Not sure if trolling or serious.
The vast majority of individuals in combat arms, and in fact throughout the contemporary army were white.
Anyways, I would not mind black REs (or other units) with corresponding voices. Brit voice acting is good and entertaining not only because of the lines but also because it encompasses a broad diversity of accents etc.
However, with both German factions and the Soviets the picture is very bleak. OH and OKW not only do not represent the great dialectal diversity of Germany at all (in their German voiceacting), they also sound like borderline deranged/psychopathic in both the German and the English voiceacting.
Meanhwile, the Soviets just as much sound like their own caricatures in English, as if sprung right out of some cold-war b-movie. Since my Russian is quite rudimentary I can't judge the merits of the Russian version, but I suspect its nothing impressive either.

As an American there is a good deal of concern about how Black people are portrayed that is fairly shared by other Americans. While the "PC everything" crowd is well over the top, using African American sounds on RE's only is risky. Keep in mind until the late 60's murdering of individuals who even associated with black people was relatively common in some parts of the states, and latent racism is not only still present but extremely potent. You need only look at our news about the amount of black men killed by police yearly to understand how ingrained our racism remains. Our first black president was yelled at during a national televised speech, in front of both houses of Congress, that he was a liar in the middle of the speech, by a southern Republican, who was then deluged by funding from supporters for this act, to get an idea of how deep our racism goes.

As a result it is easier to not stir the pot, and therefore place these sound files to the side. This is not to say black men (and women on the home front) did not serve bravely, some in the worst conditions of the war, but in a game where it might come across as bothersome to some people better just to avoid the whole thing.

If I could add them to my game I gladly would, but I would find it very hard for companies to risk getting in hot water just to add sound files.

I'm also an American who has lived outside US for months at a time so I feel I have a good perspective and not just a US-centric one. I agree to just put them into RET would be unnecessarily risky with little tangible gain. I think the one thing they could try (but it would be fraught with risk) is to give a special infantry squad of black soldiers only in one of the tiers. They could be given some special abilities/stats to show that the ones who were given opportunity to serve did so with exemplary courage. However, this would be such a minefield that I highly doubt it would be worth it.

As to how ingrained racism is; it's hard wired into all humanity...when I lived in Mexico, the people are very dismissive of indigenous Mayans/Tarahumars etc and all their ads feature extremly fair skinned Euro-phenotypes yet when I would talk with my Mexican friends about politics they would always say how racist the U.S. was compared to them when I saw just as many examples of racism in their society as in ours. I used to translate for a social services company and I would ask the central americans what part of their trip to U.S. was the most perilous...90+% would say the southern border crossing of Mexico where Xenophobic/anti-immigrant gangs patrol the border vigilante style and beat the tar out of CA immigrants and the Mexican gov't does jack sh#$ about it.
/rant over