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Remove Bystraya Voda from 2v2 automatch

Should Bystraya Voda be removed from 2v2 Automatch list?
Option Distribution Votes
12%
60%
28%
Total votes: 92
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
22 Aug 2015, 14:28 PM
#1
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

First of all I do not know how this map performs in 1v1, but in 2v2 it is atrociously bad, mainly due to its size. This map is too small small for 2v2, which results in constant arty and turtle fest. Flanking and open attacks are further discouraged by red cover roads surrounded by deep snow and frozen river in the middle which unpredictably drifts light to medium tanks, and blatantly sinks heavy tanks. Another problem is the single fuel point in the bottom of the map, as it encourages turtling even more, especially for Axis players as their assets are more styled for defensive play, and having the single fuel point, means that allies would need to constantly keep attacking that point, as there is no other second fuel point. Even if Allies manage to win over the fuel point, holding two other munition points, becomes a problem. And Axis players can hold off on muni points alone, due to them having widespread Anti-tank and Anti-infantry upgrades for infantry, while the same cannot be said about Allies. The map is also assymetrically balanced as Right side, has its cutoff point practically undefended, while left side gets a building which overlooks both muni and cutoff point, which is also completely surrounded by deep snow. The end result is:

Soviet players go for maxim/mortar spam, into Katyushas and ML-20s
Wehrmacht players go for mg-42/mortar spam into CAS and spamming the abilities on incredibly narrow roads
OKW players go for Kubel/mg-34 spam, into building an undestroyable fortress surrounded by med HQ's and Flak HQ's which is covered by ISGs and stukas
And finally USF players just lose :foreveralone:

There are already a lot of bad maps in 2v2 automatch roulette, like Trois-Points, Rzhev Winter, Ettelbruck Station and so on, so please remove this map to free up the vetos for the players, especially considering this map is unplayable for USF.

TL;DR Assymetrical 2v2 map Bystraya Voda full of Arty and Turtle fest needs to be removed
22 Aug 2015, 14:35 PM
#2
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Only thing shit about this map is the absolute ass placement of deep snow.
22 Aug 2015, 14:40 PM
#3
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Add fuel point to top, no more ice, no more deep snow WITH RED COVER, and it's fine.
22 Aug 2015, 14:40 PM
#4
avatar of Talore

Posts: 73

Remove it entirely. That church is annoying as hell.
22 Aug 2015, 14:43 PM
#5
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

Add fuel point to top, no more ice, no more deep snow WITH RED COVER, and it's fine.


Where do you want to place another fuel point, all the points are already located within 10 meters of each other. Also how would the cover be around that point, where would be its cutoff. There is no place for another fuel point.
22 Aug 2015, 14:48 PM
#6
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

Kat & ML20 fest happens on the majority of maps atm.
I just think it's a bit too small, especially the base sectors (yay USF base size), but overall the idea of the map isn't too bad, and it has a unique gameflow.

Only thing shit about this map is the absolute ass placement of deep snow.

Yup.



P.S.: i love Rzhev and Ettel with all factions :foreveralone:
22 Aug 2015, 14:51 PM
#7
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

So how do you people suggest for double USF to play this map?
22 Aug 2015, 14:53 PM
#8
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
just gotta git good mostly.
22 Aug 2015, 15:01 PM
#9
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

The usual: flank, push, conquer.
Keep in mind that basic CPs also yield fuel, and ammo. Having the north can be worth way more than just parts of the south with fuel.

And you got plenty of indirect fire: Howis, Scotts, MortarHT, Priests.

Sure, USF base size, especially on the left spawn, current USF design overall, size of the map, and deep snow placements, aren't too great.
You already mentioned the Kat / ML20 madness, so i guess i don't have to mention how the map design is even more annoying as double OKW.

Anyways, decent map, just needs improvements IMO.
22 Aug 2015, 15:36 PM
#10
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2015, 15:01 PMkamk
The usual: flank, push, conquer.
Keep in mind that basic CPs also yield fuel, and ammo. Having the north can be worth way more than just parts of the south with fuel.

And you got plenty of indirect fire: Howis, Scotts, MortarHT, Priests.

Sure, USF base size, especially on the left spawn, current USF design overall, size of the map, and deep snow placements, aren't too great.
You already mentioned the Kat / ML20 madness, so i guess i don't have to mention how the map design is even more annoying as double OKW.

Anyways, decent map, just needs improvements IMO.


Except that wouldn't work, since the map design makes it so hard to flank especially the fuel point, since it basically has 2 entry points, both with red cover roads. Putting two good microed mg's there with a single unit of some kind of infantry to cover the gaps, makes it impossible to storm it. And every try is = rifle bleed. Also smoke grenades are not this useful on this map, since once the enemy can see the large assaulting force coming from all sides he can quickly reposition his infantry to that area, stopping the assault. Bunkers also batter USF badly. Also the bottom fuel point, requires few units to defend, which allows Axis forces to allow quite a lot of forces to fight in the north or mid, and the narrow roads of the map, make it especially hard for paper USF armor, because of varioust AT units.

For USF artillery:
Mortar Half track is crap
Pack howie requires to be in the same range as Ostheer mortar to be effective, and it get hard countered by OKW stuka, and may be countered by ISG
Scott's range is too small, which makes it vulnerable to Paks/Pak43s/raketens/schrecks, also it comes after 120 fuel major and costs 75 fuel, by the time it rolls on to the battlefield Axis have some surprises of their own, considering they were holding on to the fuel point for a long time.
And finally priest which is just overpriced and is not that effective, for 480 mp and 115 fuel, it would mean sacrificing major and a lot of MP. That also would mean you would be relying on AT guns, which get hardcountered by Stuka.

As for OKW, if they place their med HQs near the fuel point, it makes all the assaults for the soviets pretty hard, meaning they can push off soviets pretty early, as well as the fact, that the size of this map allows stuka to safely counter Katyushas and ML-20s. And overall it's pretty fair game for Soviets vs OKW, and depends on what spawn they got, and how well OKW players turtle.
22 Aug 2015, 16:14 PM
#11
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2015, 15:36 PMTechBee


Except that wouldn't work, since the map design makes it so hard to flank especially the fuel point, since it basically has 2 entry points, both with red cover roads. Putting two good microed mg's there with a single unit of some kind of infantry to cover the gaps, makes it impossible to storm it. And every try is = rifle bleed. Also smoke grenades are not this useful on this map, since once the enemy can see the large assaulting force coming from all sides he can quickly reposition his infantry to that area, stopping the assault. Bunkers also batter USF badly. Also the bottom fuel point, requires few units to defend, which allows Axis forces to allow quite a lot of forces to fight in the north or mid, and the narrow roads of the map, make it especially hard for paper USF armor, because of varioust AT units.

For USF artillery:
Mortar Half track is crap
Pack howie requires to be in the same range as Ostheer mortar to be effective, and it get hard countered by OKW stuka, and may be countered by ISG
Scott's range is too small, which makes it vulnerable to Paks/Pak43s/raketens/schrecks, also it comes after 120 fuel major and costs 75 fuel, by the time it rolls on to the battlefield Axis have some surprises of their own, considering they were holding on to the fuel point for a long time.
And finally priest which is just overpriced and is not that effective, for 480 mp and 115 fuel, it would mean sacrificing major and a lot of MP. That also would mean you would be relying on AT guns, which get hardcountered by Stuka.

As for OKW, if they place their med HQs near the fuel point, it makes all the assaults for the soviets pretty hard, meaning they can push off soviets pretty early, as well as the fact, that the size of this map allows stuka to safely counter Katyushas and ML-20s. And overall it's pretty fair game for Soviets vs OKW, and depends on what spawn they got, and how well OKW players turtle.

You have to make decisions, constantly bum rushing the fuel point shouldn't be one of them.

And of course your units can be countered. You sound like anything the enemy builds can't be countered, and only you will be, which obviously is not how it goes.

Please upload a replay.
22 Aug 2015, 16:40 PM
#12
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2015, 16:14 PMkamk

You have to make decisions, constantly bum rushing the fuel point shouldn't be one of them.

And of course your units can be countered. You sound like anything the enemy builds can't be countered, and only you will be, which obviously is not how it goes.

Please upload a replay.


I have just told you, how basic builds counter everything USF can bring into the game, in the message you have quoted
22 Aug 2015, 16:54 PM
#13
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Samp the northern Munitions point to the southern point between the VP and fuel. Make the old northern munition's point a fuel point, and swap the middle munitions point with the far left VP, move the far right VP to the top middle capture point. There you go, know you have a even line of muni, fuel, and VP's.

And finally priest which is just overpriced and is not that effective, for 480 mp and 115 fuel, it would mean sacrificing major and a lot of MP. That also would mean you would be relying on AT guns, which get hardcountered by Stuka.


I wouldn't call 200 damage with a much better AoE profile than the LeFH, while being mobile, with less scatter, and able to be popcap abused "overpriced and not effective".
22 Aug 2015, 17:05 PM
#14
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

instead of removing maps, add more vetos already..
22 Aug 2015, 17:10 PM
#15
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Only thing shit about this map is the absolute ass placement of deep snow.
22 Aug 2015, 18:01 PM
#16
avatar of TechBee

Posts: 33

Samp the northern Munitions point to the southern point between the VP and fuel. Make the old northern munition's point a fuel point, and swap the middle munitions point with the far left VP, move the far right VP to the top middle capture point. There you go, know you have a even line of muni, fuel, and VP's.



I wouldn't call 200 damage with a much better AoE profile than the LeFH, while being mobile, with less scatter, and able to be popcap abused "overpriced and not effective".


Where would you find all that MP, and how would you protect them?

Priest gives you a choice, Major or priest itself, and this is its main problem, also rifle bleed is a problem for it too, because it means 480 mp into priest itself, and 540 mp in at least two at guns. So may be priest isn't that mediocre, but for USF it just isn't good enough
22 Aug 2015, 22:07 PM
#17
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

Only thing this map needs is no deep snow. Probably also a widening of the south and middle to allow for more fluid vehicle movement. Other than those problems, I actually kind of like the map.
22 Aug 2015, 22:38 PM
#18
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Aug 2015, 16:40 PMTechBee


I have just told you, how basic builds counter everything USF can bring into the game, in the message you have quoted

And you can counter everything they bring up - that's how RTS work.
In a game like COH2 there's always different solutions, especially in 2v2, so don't hesitate to post a replay.
22 Aug 2015, 22:54 PM
#19
avatar of Hater

Posts: 493

I just hate that map's shadows.
22 Aug 2015, 22:58 PM
#20
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

This map is riddled with more diseases than Stalingrad is :foreveralone:

It needs to go in 1v1 as well.
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