AOE Suggestion to prevent squad wipes

Since I'm getting bashed pretty hard right now about all my posts about USF problems I'm moving on (at least for today).

Since forever CoH2 has had a pretty serious problem with full health squad wipes - from all types of sources. It could be anything from a 30MU grenade to a shot from a 203mm howitzer. The real problem is that some of theses (epsecially in the case of a 30Mu grenade wiping a 240MP squad) it is highly unbalanced. In some cases (203mm howitzer direct hit) should still wipe the squad.

Have AOE weapons have a max damage modifer added to AOE weapons. What I mean is that an explosive entity can only do up to X amount of total damage. The way it works currently is that it does a set amount of damage within each ring of AOE extending out from the blast - a single grenade can kill 6 men because of this if the are all in the closest ring because of this mechanic.

So lets look at how this works in the case of a grenade. It lands under a 4 man squad but now has a theoretical max damage of 160 - so it kills one model that is directly on top of it, that's 80 right there, and damages two others that were farther out from the radius for 40 each, the fourth guy was in the farthest AOE ring and doesn't receive damage at all. Now lets say all four guys were right on top of each other when the nade went off. In that case it would kill 2 models at 80 damage a piece and do no damage two the other 2. The amount of damage would be determined by distance to AOE, in the case of a model being in near_AOE or mid_AOE the one closest to the AOE would take priority and get to absorb the max amount of damage it can, and then gets passed to the next closest level of AOE and so on.

This would have to be done entity by entity to determine what is fair. I say 160 total damage is pretty fair for a grenade - so no more than 2 models would ever die from a single grenade. For a HE tank shell from say a Panzer 4 I'd say 240 or so is fair. In the case of a 155mm shell I'd say 320 is fair.

To balance this mechanic out perhaps some units accuracy would need to be increased slightly. That way AOE weapons could do more reliable damage without the risk of squad wiping. Please understand, I am not actually suggesting we reduce/increase the base-damage of AOE weapons, only the damage potential to bunched up soldiers. In fact in the majority of cases you won't notice a difference, the way damage works and everything would be unchanged - only that a single mortar shell wouldn't be killing 6 guys now.

If I unit like heavy mortar or arty wipes squad thats ok cuz you cannot mass those units.
But when shit cheap RG kills 4 models thats absurd.

Instead of fucking around with AoE, Relic just needs to increase the spacing on Infantry squads. That would instantly solve most problems with AoE and squadwipes.

Instead of fucking around with AoE, Relic just needs to increase the spacing on Infantry squads. That would instantly solve most problems with AoE and squadwipes.

This.
I had a T-70 oneshotting 3 out of 4 crewmen on a PaK, because one of them decided they wanted to be inside another crew member (after being shot up by a mortar of course).

I think people forget how tough spacing is. "Fix it" and we go back to units not taking cover properly, which is the original reason we have tight squad spacing now.

I had a T-70 oneshotting 3 out of 4 crewmen on a PaK, because one of them decided they wanted to be inside another crew member (after being shot up by a mortar of course).

It's more common to see squad members melding with each other than it is to see them more than 3 meters apart, and that's just silly as hell.

I think people forget how tough spacing is. "Fix it" and we go back to units not taking cover properly, which is the original reason we have tight squad spacing now.

Cover and spacing are different. Spacing is for in the open. You can be in a 300m wide field but everyone wants to occupy the same 5 square meters.

Instead of fucking around with AoE, Relic just needs to increase the spacing on Infantry squads. That would instantly solve most problems with AoE and squadwipes.

Spacing isn't the only issue - that just fixes some squad wipes in the open. It still doesn't fix squads bunching up in cover, or when they are squeezing through a hole in a wall, or all get stacked on top of eachother inside shell crater. It also doesn't fix squad wipes inside trench/bunker/fighting position.

I'm not "F-ing around" with AOE so much as just setting a limit to how much damage it can do. Right now damage in the middle of a grenade radius can kill an infinity of soliders if they are stacked on top of eachother. My change simply makes it so that 1 grenade doesn't kill more than 2 soldiers.

As far as things like large caliber shells you'll see less of a difference, since I would assume their max damage would be set a lot higher. Heck they might not even need max damage.

Things like tanks/grenades/mortars (in general light AOE) would need a max damage. I've seen plenty of T34/P4/Sherman wipe full health squads because the shell hit in exactly the right place. It's not balanced. Same thing with mortar/grenade/Zis3 barrage etc. One shell shouldn't be wiping a squad.

Why cant we just make it so squad members can't be inside one another. U know. Can't we fix soldier collisions so that doesn't happen? Squad spacing stays the same but if soldiers couldn't stand inside each other that would atleast fix half the problem.

I think people forget how tough spacing is. "Fix it" and we go back to units not taking cover properly, which is the original reason we have tight squad spacing now.

I'd like to add:

Right-click drag into facing position, you don't have to worry about spacing unless you try and take cover into a small crater or behind a little tractor dude thing... or any small cover in general.

Spacing isn't the only issue - that just fixes some squad wipes in the open. It still doesn't fix squads bunching up in cover, or when they are squeezing through a hole in a wall, or all get stacked on top of eachother inside shell crater. It also doesn't fix squad wipes inside trench/bunker/fighting position.

That's the risk you take from using small cover. What needs fixing is entire infantry squads standing shoulder to shoulder in a wide-open field. If they don't fix spacing for our Armies before the British Forces release, it's going to be very awkward and annoying.

I think people forget how tough spacing is. "Fix it" and we go back to units not taking cover properly, which is the original reason we have tight squad spacing now.

There are actually squads in the game (paratroopers for example) that can still get in cover while having better spacing out in the open. Also units "seeking" cover when told to move places also doesn't help.

I don't care if it causes problems getting into cover but my Volks should not constantly warp inside of one another.

But this is a real damned if you/don't for Relic. Some people want their troops to seek cover, even if it means moving from the spot they were sent to. Other people would rather they obeyed orders precisely, and are willing to accept a few losses as the price of control.

In many respects this mirrors the argument over RNG. Is the game better when its crisp, precise and even deterministic, or is it enhanced by a bit of chaos and unpredictability?

ETA: on the issue of troops clipping into each other, I suspect this is deliberate. Because when units are not allowed to occupy the same space, it can produce other problems: frex, getting jammed up on each other when trying to enter or exit a building. The same applies to vehicles, you quite often see friendly vehicles drive right through each other, because this minimises traffic jams.

Why cant we just make it so squad members can't be inside one another. U know. Can't we fix soldier collisions so that doesn't happen? Squad spacing stays the same but if soldiers couldn't stand inside each other that would atleast fix half the problem.

This.

It's ridiculous when 4 grens pile around the corner of a wall on top of each other only to all be nailed in the face by and M8 round which kills them all.

This shit is top of the list of things I say is still happening when my friends ask how CoH2 all s doing now...

I take it you've never been shot in the back for blocking...

But this is a real damned if you/don't for Relic. Some people want their troops to seek cover, even if it means moving from the spot they were sent to. Other people would rather they obeyed orders precisely, and are willing to accept a few losses as the price of control.

In many respects this mirrors the argument over RNG. Is the game better when its crisp, precise and even deterministic, or is it enhanced by a bit of chaos and unpredictability?

ETA: on the issue of troops clipping into each other, I suspect this is deliberate. Because when units are not allowed to occupy the same space, it can produce other problems: frex, getting jammed up on each other when trying to enter or exit a building. The same applies to vehicles, you quite often see friendly vehicles drive right through each other, because this minimises traffic jams.

Except making cars warp through each other is a lazy way of fixing traffic jams. Better pathfinding is a sorely needed thing on it's own but troops being able to stand or exist inside of on another is dumb as hell because it leads to stupid shit like your riflemen exiting a building and getting wiped by a single mortar shell because they came out the door all standing inside one another.

Yes but... Look, in Counterstrikeource, people can't walk through each, and sometimes that leads to the friendly fire I alluded to, and a lot of bad blood between team-mates. In Battlefield 2, you could clip through each no problem, but it made things a bit unrealistic, and you could indeed both be killed by a 'nade.

Until the happy day arrives that computer programmes can mirror physical reality perfectly, there will probably have to be a compromise somewhere, and it's likely that it will leave somebody unhappy.

Also they still haven't fixed the zombie crawlers. They keep stopping my squads, sometimes even from getting in cover. If they can fix the spacing out problems and the irritating crawlers, I would be so happy

Also they still haven't fixed the zombie crawlers. They keep stopping my squads, sometimes even from getting in cover. If they can fix the spacing out problems and the irritating crawlers, I would be so happy

This is another HUGE issue that relic has largely ignored. I have no idea why crawling troops can even be targeted. I thought i was just clicking on the ground issuing a move order and next thing I know my guys have stopped moving and are turning a crawler into swiss cheese.

Even more infuruating is that troops will waste shots on crew members that are running away - I've had tanks move their turret and fire off a round at crew members running off the map - it can be pretty critical when your in the middle of flanking operation, just decrewed an AT gun and then your tank is off shooting at nothing.

ETA: on the issue of troops clipping into each other, I suspect this is deliberate. Because when units are not allowed to occupy the same space, it can produce other problems: frex, getting jammed up on each other when trying to enter or exit a building. The same applies to vehicles, you quite often see friendly vehicles drive right through each other, because this minimises traffic jams.

So all the times I've watched my vehicles get stuck on each other in tight spaces while reversing away is the actual bug?

I'd actually be OK with that.

So all the times I've watched my vehicles get stuck on each other in tight spaces while reversing away is the actual bug?

I'd actually be OK with that.

if they're close enough and you give them a command they'll go into each other. you can do it with any vehicles, allied or not