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M26 Pershing/Calliope Debate

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24 Aug 2015, 01:04 AM
#161
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Aug 2015, 21:46 PMQbix
Well whatever, enjoy your awesome LT that runs in open doors while your opponent fields vehicles.


you will have the LT way before light vehicles arrive, and you can get your captain by the time any significant threat arrives.

also the zook is not just average, it performs really well against light vehicles thanks to its higher rate of fire compared to the shrek, and you can always get them in the early-mid game because youll probably be floating munitions.

24 Aug 2015, 01:45 AM
#162
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2



None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.

And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.

...


well said. one or two unit will not fix USF.
24 Aug 2015, 06:00 AM
#163
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392



None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.

And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.


Things USF Needs for its Core

-Riflemen Veterancy:
-Make the accuracy bonus to their weapons that they receive the same as the other faction: 40%. Possibly split it between vet 2-3.
-Received Accuracy bonus to 27-28% from 23%. Possibly split between vet 2-3 if accuracy bonus was also split.

-Bazooka:
-Decrease price to 50 munitions to allow it to be more available as a soft counter/deterant to vehicles.
-increase its accuracy at range to make it more reliable at chipping health.
-Maybe make its penetration flat so not drop-off at range to make it more consistent.

-.50cal: -Increase .50cal penetration from 3.0/2.0/1.0 to 4.5/3.0/2.5, would allow the USF LT tier to have a soft counter to light armour when supported with rifle AT grenades.
-Fix issues/bugs with .50cal such as the overpriced crew, gun health/armour and its vet 2 weapon not having the same bonuses that all MGs got in the June/July patch which Cruzz has stated. Removed received accuracy penalty on the crew.
-Maybe drop cost to 260.

Ambulance: Lowers is population cap from 4 to 2. Yes it can reinforce, but the moment it steps out of the base it's at risk of being on shotted by everything.
-Give it a slow passive healing ability when in the base sector and stationary.

Pack Howitzer: Increase the number of shells on all barrages to make these better at area denial. -Standard HE and WP is 6 rounds, no longer losses standard HE from vet.
-HEAT fires 4 rounds.
-Remove cost on WP to give more incentive on using it over the regular barrage.

57mm ATG:
-Increase its base penetration to 165/150/135 to make it more reliable vs mediums.
-Possibly move to T1 and require any officer.

Major: Major model population from 3 to 1. Makes the whole squad only 3 pop cap.
-Revamp his barrage ability and fix the timer on the drop-time between shells that is currently inversed. Make it have a long cooldown and shorter range a tad, but make it much cheaper/free. Not effective, but it would give more incentive to push him forth and be the heavy indirect-fire unit the USF lacks to force weapon teams to move without mass smoke and be an interesting take on artillery.

Tank .50cals: Cost dropped to 50-60 munitions form the hefty 70.

Add a Mortar:
-Fast rate of fire, good accuracy, access to smoke, lower OHK radius compared to other mortars and less range that is meant to operate right behind the rifles and give them the fire support they need and force weapon teams to move if not from damage, then from sheer ROF.
-Found in T0

Lieutenant: Change to a long-range combat support unit (Modified M1 Garand profile similar to Pathfinder rather than a BAR) with various abilities rather than Riflemen 1.25 like possible auras similar to the artillery officer. Would help him later in the game in toughening nearby USF units while making him not this shock unit that would be followed up by various light armour.
-Starts at four man to emphasize support role. Goes back to five at vet 2-3.

M20:
-Manpower from 340 to 260/280 to reduce that hefty MP price.

AA HT:
-Similar to M20, lower its MP cost to 300 from 360(?). It already pays by having a high fuel cost.

The USF current tank/Major(except the Major himself) tier is actually fine I would say. They all do their jobs as intended, but don't have exactly the strongest core backing them up and in the end. Pershing and Calliope would just be fun toys USF could play with, but are not necessary to win. Ostheer doesn't need Tiger or Panthers to win, Soviets don't need IS-2s and OKW doesn't need KTs so USF shouldn't need a Pershing to rely entirely upon. It's the main core units that should be holding them up.


i understand you wish another part of the faction to be fixed,and i agree but none of those proposed changes you said to anything really(you suggested 2 other units to be added that wont help you much later on in the game) few examples.

"Bazookas"
no point being accurate if you dont have good penetration and damage,something the bazooka doesnt have,and i doubt that 10 munition reduction will save the faction in the long run,let alone late game.
"Pack Howitzer"
still what you suggested wont really help at all,its problem is its accuracy(or what ever it causes the shell to miss)if you fix that then the thing will be a nightmare to face(and might fix some problems lategame namely blobs)but extra inaccurate shells wont help it
".50cal M2HB"
the .50cal M2HB has a major problem and that is durability,even in green cover a blob can still kill it,also sometimes the thing doesnt supress,i doubt it would be made effective if it could fight light vechiles,make it more durable and more capable to supress huge blobs will solve some issues but still not the late game.
"57mm AT gun"
well the unit needs a huge penetration increace to fight heavy tanks not panzer 4s,it deals with panzer 4s very well(never seen it fail to penetrate P4s)the problem this thing is its durability and low penetration to damage panthers and other durable tanks(aka heavys)if it could have the same penetration with default shells as the ZIS-3 and then the PAK40s penetration with AP shells with a price increace to 300mp it would also solve a few problems(if not all)in late game.
"Add a mortar"
ahhhh the mortar demand,oh boy, if there is one thing i know about mortars is the fact that they dont pose a threat unless you have multiple ones firing,by adding this mortar you may solve the issue but dont be fooled,in the long run the mortar wont help you into late game,again no matter how good a faction is,it will go to late game regardless of what you do(1vs1s americans are mostly ok cause late game there doesnt exist most of the time),better buff the Pack Howitzer and you wont need a mortar.

but after all this i still dont see a way to keep tigers and panthers at bay(jacksons wont help without a wall protecting them),i still dont see a way to flank the enemy tanks by using a barrage behind them in order to protect your tanks from enemy at,i still see tanks that do nothing late game and are nothing more but meat sheilds(and very bad ones)that pose no threat to panthers nor allow USF tanks to flank by providing indirect fire support.
i also dont see any change what would also help the USF early game troubles(like having Grenades for free would be a good start)(early AT for kubels or light vechiles for snipers)you still get a bad faction.

and i agree many people would pick the pershing commander just because it has a heavy tanks but still you cant blame them,almost eveything the USF has does nothing into late game and the performance of the USF tanks doesnt help either,all in all pershing is needed,unless you buff their tanks to scale better late game or by default to be better,i dont see a reason as to why the pershing shouldnt be added.
(Heavy tanks on both sides is always a good idea,otherwise you see artillery,i mostly see heavys around and you should remember that Werhmacht and Oberkommando West have in their tech a Panther tank)
24 Aug 2015, 07:13 AM
#164
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



...


If your overall units are performing better, you'll get less issues to deal with late game. Pershing won't help you if the rest of your army get blasted before it hits the field. Calliope is another debate.

24 Aug 2015, 07:26 AM
#165
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

It's not about fixing anyting. It's about late game AT options.

Units with pen 200 or higher:

Wehrmacht: Pak40, Pak43 Stug G, Tiger, Panther, Elephant.
OKW: Raketen, Pak43, JP IV, Panther, Command Panther, Sturmtiger, King Tiger, Jadgtiger.
SU: ZiS-3, SU-76, SU-85, KV-2, IS-2, ISU-152.
USF: Jackson :foreveralone:

Pershing would add more deep to USF. More late-game options cause currently it's just Jackson spam.
Also, why USF is the only faction with 1 unit which has 200+ pen? It's not good design when only 1 unit has good penetration.

For the people saying that we will see Pershing every single game - you said same thing about E8 yet after first week since release when there hype for E8 was gone, Infantry and Airborne went back as a better choices.
24 Aug 2015, 07:42 AM
#166
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

And what make you suppose a M26 would have 200 pen? :foreveralone:
24 Aug 2015, 07:50 AM
#167
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2015, 07:42 AMEsxile
And what make you suppose a M26 would have 200 pen? :foreveralone:


It shares gun with M36.
24 Aug 2015, 08:18 AM
#168
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



It shares gun with M36.


222 and luch are also sharing guns! do not underestimate Relic! :D
24 Aug 2015, 08:59 AM
#169
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

It's not about fixing anyting. It's about late game AT options.

Units with pen 200 or higher:

Wehrmacht: Pak40, Pak43 Stug G, Tiger, Panther, Elephant.
OKW: Raketen, Pak43, JP IV, Panther, Command Panther, Sturmtiger, King Tiger, Jadgtiger.
SU: ZiS-3, SU-76, SU-85, KV-2, IS-2, ISU-152.
USF: Jackson :foreveralone:
...


And now let's make a list with non-doctrinal units that can achieve 300 pen or higher:
OST: :guyokay:
OKW: :guyokay:
SOV: :guyokay:
USF: Jackson :megusta:

I really like those lists, they just take everything out of context, and completely ignore faction design & gameflow.



It's not about late game AT options, it's about giving USF a break from baby sitting. Throwing in some doctrinal "heavy" tank won't solve anything.
A Pershing won't solve you investing quite some apm into basic tasks (which is a lot for lower skill ranges - the majority of players), it won't solve your bleed, it won't solve repetitive tasks you have to do, and it won't solve certain weak commanders. Just gonna add another unit that's either useless or borderline OP, while the overall faction is still a mix of fun and... frustration.

USF AT is awesome btw., but it's tough to use them with their full potential.

Well, just my 2 cents... adding some Heavy won't solve anything.
24 Aug 2015, 09:10 AM
#170
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2015, 07:13 AMEsxile


If your overall units are performing better, you'll get less issues to deal with late game. Pershing won't help you if the rest of your army get blasted before it hits the field. Calliope is another debate.


the M2HB .50cal is the perfect example of why not having durability hurts,the unit is very good but dies too fast so it doesnt shine and really doesnt help at all.when facing something that has BOTH durability and a damage you see why the faction wont be fixed,pershing would take damage and allow the other "glass cannon" units to survive indirectly,something the rest of the arsenal cant provide(unless you buff shermans by ALOT)
24 Aug 2015, 09:11 AM
#171
avatar of Barantah
Donator 22

Posts: 90

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2015, 08:59 AMkamk


And now let's make a list with non-doctrinal units that can achieve 200 pen or higher:
OST: Pak 40 Stug G Panther:guyokay:
OKW:Raketen JP IV Panther King tiger :guyokay:
SOV:ZiS-3 SU-76 :guyokay:
USF: Jackson :megusta:



Fixed for you are you said NON-DOCTRINAL units. Dunno Zis 3 and pak 40 were doctrinal :)

Also, keep focused on 200 Pen don't really care about 300 pen(As German you don't really need 300 amor pen right, not with allies paper tank) :)
24 Aug 2015, 09:12 AM
#172
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764



Fixed for you are you said NON-DOCTRINAL units. Dunno Zis 3 and pak 40 were doctrinal :)

Pzzzt, now the whole point is gone :sibDZ:

(you're right ofc... )

Edit: should have maybe said "can achieve 300 pen without using any specials", just to make it even more biased.
24 Aug 2015, 14:51 PM
#173
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Why would you think only about non-doc options if you will always have something doctrinal?

Like I said before, it's about diversity.
Soviets, Wehrmacht, OKW, even Brits have many ways to deal with late-game armor.
Many units, many commanders which lead to flexibility so in one game you can see Paks+Panters but in another you will face Tiger or Elephant.
Same for OKW. Once you will stand agasint JPs IV spam, but next time you will fight agasint Panthers, Jadgtiger or Pak43.

Your enemy cannot predict from first second of the game, what will be your late-game option because you have plenty ways.

As US Forces there is only Jackson, and since the first minute, you know that you will see them at some point in front of your JP/Panther/Tiger.

Of course, there is also Wolverine or E8 but they are not truly late game AT options when compare to JP or Panther.

I'm not talking about 1v1 when you can go for Sherman spam. I'm talking about 2v2.
24 Aug 2015, 15:20 PM
#174
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21



None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.

And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.
Agreed slightly.(I still think having a Pershing Doc would be cool. :foreveralone: )

Things USF Needs for its Core

-Riflemen Veterancy:
-Make the accuracy bonus to their weapons that they receive the same as the other faction: 40%. Possibly split it between vet 2-3.
-Received Accuracy bonus to 27-28% from 23%. Possibly split between vet 2-3 if accuracy bonus was also split.
Agreed
-Bazooka:
-Decrease price to 50 munitions to allow it to be more available as a soft counter/deterant to vehicles.
-increase its accuracy at range to make it more reliable at chipping health.
-Maybe make its penetration flat so not drop-off at range to make it more consistent.
Agreed slightly
-.50cal: -Increase .50cal penetration from 3.0/2.0/1.0 to 4.5/3.0/2.5, would allow the USF LT tier to have a soft counter to light armour when supported with rifle AT grenades.
-Fix issues/bugs with .50cal such as the overpriced crew, gun health/armour and its vet 2 weapon not having the same bonuses that all MGs got in the June/July patch which Cruzz has stated. Removed received accuracy penalty on the crew.
-Maybe drop cost to 260.
Agreed slightly.
Ambulance: Lowers is population cap from 4 to 2. Yes it can reinforce, but the moment it steps out of the base it's at risk of being on shotted by everything.
-Give it a slow passive healing ability when in the base sector and stationary.
I disagree as the ambulance while susceptible to fire gives a huge adv by serving as a forward reinforce point with the major lockdown.
Pack Howitzer: Increase the number of shells on all barrages to make these better at area denial. -Standard HE and WP is 6 rounds, no longer losses standard HE from vet.
-HEAT fires 4 rounds.
-Remove cost on WP to give more incentive on using it over the regular barrage.
Agree slightly.
57mm ATG:
-Increase its base penetration to 165/150/135 to make it more reliable vs mediums.
-Possibly move to T1 and require any officer.
Agree with the T1 suggestion only(the problem with the AT gun isn't penetration(as the cheap 30 muni ap rounds + take aim ability can be devastatingly effective, it's the received accuracy making it one of the easiest AT-guns to de-crew.)
Major: Major model population from 3 to 1. Makes the whole squad only 3 pop cap.
-Revamp his barrage ability and fix the timer on the drop-time between shells that is currently inversed. Make it have a long cooldown and shorter range a tad, but make it much cheaper/free. Not effective, but it would give more incentive to push him forth and be the heavy indirect-fire unit the USF lacks to force weapon teams to move without mass smoke and be an interesting take on artillery.
Agreed.
Tank .50cals: Cost dropped to 50-60 munitions form the hefty 70.
Agreed slightly.
Add a Mortar:
-Fast rate of fire, good accuracy, access to smoke, lower OHK radius compared to other mortars and less range that is meant to operate right behind the rifles and give them the fire support they need and force weapon teams to move if not from damage, then from sheer ROF.
-Found in T0
Strongly agree.
Lieutenant: Change to a long-range combat support unit (Modified M1 Garand profile similar to Pathfinder rather than a BAR) with various abilities rather than Riflemen 1.25 like possible auras similar to the artillery officer. Would help him later in the game in toughening nearby USF units while making him not this shock unit that would be followed up by various light armour.
-Starts at four man to emphasize support role. Goes back to five at vet 2-3.
Agreed.
M20:
-Manpower from 340 to 260/280 to reduce that hefty MP price.
Heavily Disagree(The M20 is a shock unit and can be produced considerably quickly with only one fuel point captured, I have seen these things come out around the 4 minute mark and that can be devasting vs Ost/OKW as it'll still take them 1-2 minutes to get t2 or considerable AT out to counter it) Heck I'd even suggest adding 5 fuel to the M20.
AA HT:
-Similar to M20, lower its MP cost to 300 from 360(?). It already pays by having a high fuel cost.
Agreed.
The USF current tank/Major(except the Major himself) tier is actually fine I would say. They all do their jobs as intended, but don't have exactly the strongest core backing them up and in the end. Pershing and Calliope would just be fun toys USF could play with, but are not necessary to win. Ostheer doesn't need Tiger or Panthers to win, Soviets don't need IS-2s and OKW doesn't need KTs so USF shouldn't need a Pershing to rely entirely upon. It's the main core units that should be holding them up.
Slightly agree(I still have doubts on t4 effectiveness).
24 Aug 2015, 15:40 PM
#175
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764

It was to make a point, that you can always use some random value and start comparing in terms of "the grass is greener on the other side".

As you say yourself now: many commanders, many units, and flexibility. One game you will face Sherman spam, but next time you will fight against Jacksons, M10s, or a bunch of ATs - you see where this goes?
USF has flexibility, it just isn't easy to use, not really apparent, and certainly quite frustrating to use sometimes.

As US Forces there is only Jackson, and since the first minute, you know that you will see them at some point in front of your JP/Panther/Tiger.

That's two different factions you're facing there, one unit is doctrinal, and none of these are an issue for USF.
With current meta it feels like i see M10s more often than Jacksons. E8 just doesn't have a good trade off anymore.



So how would a Pershing help the faction AT wise? So you can fight a Panther with your own "Panther"?
That's it? Fine, add the damn thing... late game gonna be the same though.
(my point being: nice to have thing, not necessary, and certainly no real help with the faction overall)

edit: miragefla has some nice ideas there, but that should be another topic IMO
24 Aug 2015, 16:06 PM
#176
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2015, 08:59 AMkamk


And now let's make a list with non-doctrinal units that can achieve 300 pen or higher:
OST: :guyokay:
OKW: :guyokay:
SOV: :guyokay:
USF: Jackson :megusta:

I really like those lists, they just take everything out of context, and completely ignore faction design & gameflow.



It's not about late game AT options, it's about giving USF a break from baby sitting. Throwing in some doctrinal "heavy" tank won't solve anything.
A Pershing won't solve you investing quite some apm into basic tasks (which is a lot for lower skill ranges - the majority of players), it won't solve your bleed, it won't solve repetitive tasks you have to do, and it won't solve certain weak commanders. Just gonna add another unit that's either useless or borderline OP, while the overall faction is still a mix of fun and... frustration.

USF AT is awesome btw., but it's tough to use them with their full potential.

Well, just my 2 cents... adding some Heavy won't solve anything.


Yo buddy, doctrinal or not SturmTiger 1000 pen is nutz. Yolo. That original list said a lot your just trying to derail it with the non doctrinal part. 1 unit with good pen is insufficient for USF. Unless you like P47 picks every game.
24 Aug 2015, 16:46 PM
#177
avatar of kamk
Donator 11

Posts: 764



Yo buddy, doctrinal or not SturmTiger 1000 pen is nutz. Yolo. That original list said a lot your just trying to derail it with the non doctrinal part. 1 unit with good pen is insufficient for USF. Unless you like P47 picks every game.

Please read both of my replies, and try to understand the points i tried to make.
(small hint: one of those points was the flaw in creating artificial lists with self defined thresholds - even put that in nice bold letters...)

Thanks.

P.S.: not sure why you feel the need to help out your fellow bear with posts like this. It does the complete opposite.
24 Aug 2015, 17:12 PM
#178
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

The list defined units with high pen, which goes to the point of what USF lacks. So it's defined for a purpose, I don't feel Pershing is the exclusive answer myself, still would be A welcome addition. But moreover changes to existing units Manley the AT gun and Bazooka might help more long term.
24 Aug 2015, 17:45 PM
#179
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2015, 15:40 PMkamk
It was to make a point, that you can always use some random value and start comparing in terms of "the grass is greener on the other side".

As you say yourself now: many commanders, many units, and flexibility. One game you will face Sherman spam, but next time you will fight against Jacksons, M10s, or a bunch of ATs - you see where this goes?
USF has flexibility, it just isn't easy to use, not really apparent, and certainly quite frustrating to use sometimes.


That's two different factions you're facing there, one unit is doctrinal, and none of these are an issue for USF.
With current meta it feels like i see M10s more often than Jacksons. E8 just doesn't have a good trade off anymore.



So how would a Pershing help the faction AT wise? So you can fight a Panther with your own "Panther"?
That's it? Fine, add the damn thing... late game gonna be the same though.
(my point being: nice to have thing, not necessary, and certainly no real help with the faction overall)

edit: miragefla has some nice ideas there, but that should be another topic IMO


Well, but we can agree that M10s, 57mm and Shermans will fail against Tiger Ace, or KT+JT combo. You can't outrange them, you have low chance to pen front armor, you can't flank (beacause of map or because of mines/paks/shcrecks and even if you do, there is high chance you will lose your M10s while KT will survive with almost no health.

It's not about if they are big issue for USF. It's about late game options you have. You can rely on Paks and call Tiger; Pak+Pz4 into Elephant; Pak43+panther; Volks+Raketens until KT/JT or make 2-3 JPIV instead of waiting for KT and no matter which way you choose, your late game AT will be truly powerful.

And it's not about fighting Panther with your own Panther.
It's about having unit which can jump out around the corner in front of Panther/Tiger/King Tiger, take few shoots, and still survive, while it's also able to inflict damage.

Right now you can fight only at distance, which is not superior to axis units in fact.
24 Aug 2015, 18:42 PM
#180
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

The list defined units with high pen, which goes to the point of what USF lacks. So it's defined for a purpose, I don't feel Pershing is the exclusive answer myself, still would be A welcome addition. But moreover changes to existing units Manley the AT gun and Bazooka might help more long term.


USF right now doesn't have issues with lack of AT (they have pretty plentiful numbers at all periods of the game) what USF has issues with is the fact their main line infantry fall apart later in the game and they lack a substitute like Soviets/OKW do.

Like right now Jacksons can make mincemeat of any Axis heavy while the USF AT gun has found new life in the fact it can now have mediums to shoot at instead of nothing but Tigers and Panthers.

The zook might need a small cost decrease, but the only thing USF needs for it's crew weapons is 1 more man and the removal of received accuracy.

Granted OKW needs 1 more man on it's crews and all factions shouldn't have received accuracy on crew weapons but go figure.

Well, but we can agree that M10s, 57mm and Shermans will fail against Tiger Ace, or KT+JT combo. You can't outrange them, you have low chance to pen front armor, you can't flank (beacause of map or because of mines/paks/shcrecks and even if you do, there is high chance you will lose your M10s while KT will survive with almost no health.


M10's are actually one of the best AT options in the game due to the combination of insanely high speed, crush, ROF, and turret traverse. Shreks to counter M10's is also p lol suggestion. The correct way is lots of mines, Paks, and mediums.

Long gone are the days of ALWAYS going for heavies, since most of the time they just aren't worth the wait and are to easy to swarm (especially so in the case of the JT).
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