Current European Situation Discussion

The Schengen Agreement is bad for europe . Furthermore , the Russian Federation is cleverly taking advantage of all this commotion .

I wonder when will nato is going to do something . Because its not looking good for ATO ( ukrainian troops ) .

I'll let this roll under my watch and if we are getting off track (which I expect to be soon) I will lock this down

All political disputes over territory, resources, religion, and economics should be settled in a gladiator arena where the opposing countries nominates three noble warriors to fight on their behalf.

I wonder when will nato is going to do something . Because its not looking good for ATO ( ukrainian troops ) .

Agreed, however the issue is hard. Any further support for Ukraine in the form of increased supply shipments, leathal weapons etc, can and in that case WILL be matched by the Russian Federation. They will have little problem simply opening up the Voentorg abit more.
That would mean just further escalation of the conflict.


Truth be told NATO has quite a good power projection and the Russians don't extend far, however this close to Russias border they have a clear advantage in force and NATO at this time simply cannot compete. For this reason NATO does not have the possibility of projecting enough power in the region to even acchive parity with the RF.


And the Cease-fire is weak enough as it is. With both sides being held back by other powers. I've heard both Zakharchenko and Poroshenko giving speaches where they ensure people more or less "We are just biding our time and then go on the offensive"

Hopefully German and France will be successfull in holding of Poroshenko and Russia in holding off DNR/LNR. But it was quite evident in the recent fighting in Marinka that neither side is really ready to call quits.
I mean DNR/LNR will hardly accept anything but total control over their respective Oblasts, and Ukraine will not settle for loosing the quite important areas the rebels now possess.

Thought this was about greece before I clicked.

Thought this was about greece before I clicked.

me too,
Lannister always pays his debts, a Greek dont Kappa

What Portugals know about home war on Ukraine? Probably nothing. European Medias are full of bs and propaganda, don't count on it. Really, I'm living 20km near of Ukraine border and probably I know better what's going up there than other guy from west Europe

Im not sure I agree that being close to a country in a conflict automaticallzy grants you higher insight into the situation than somebody living on the otherside of the planet...

Media is open and you can get pretty much all opinions and first hand sources without leaving your desk.

What Portugals know about home war on Ukraine? Probably nothing. European Medias are full of bs and propaganda, don't count on it. Really, I'm living 20km near of Ukraine border and probably I know better what's going up there than other guy from west Europe

I will not comment on your knowledge, or mine. But if your assertion is true, think about how it applies to all those people who are so sure they know what goes on in the US, the Middle East, or Greece.

On Ukraine - Let this be a lesson to all that have a Nuclear arsenal, don't ever give it up.

On Greece - Let this be a lesson for all greedy socialists everywhere.

On Russia - Might makes right.

On the Euro - see you later.

EU - Goodbye.

Im intrigued by the one sided-ness of the Greek crisis here in nothern parts of Europe. Well it goes without saying the situation comes from an ineffective civil society and shit poor politicians the past several decades.

And Greece does need to pay debts. But as I understand they want to do that do, they are just saying that the current plan and the proposed one would lead you know, to starvation.

Its not only "buckling down and working for less" its "How the fuck do you get money for food?"

Writing debt off is not a workable solution, but neither is Merkels Hungerplan. I mean we cant really demand that the Greeks put their own people out in the streets begging for scraps can we? And I don't think people worried about food and shelter are effective workers.

Just my two cents.

On Ukraine - Let this be a lesson to all that have a Nuclear arsenal, don't ever give it up.

Wouldn't have made any difference what so ever. Ukraine still has diplomatic ties with Russia and they do trade quite a bit. (A lot less than before ofc)

This situation would still have developed and what would they have done if they had Nukes? Use them tactically on the battlefield? Yeah Nuking your own soil is not recommended. Nuke Russian population centers, or even military installations within Russia? As in a nuclear first strike?

Yeah that is political suicide. No matter how many "enemies" you kill, you've lost the war. Especially the information war, no western power would support a country that commits a nuclear first strike.

Might makes right.

Aint that the truth. +1

Being in Germany, I'm honestly surprised at how much open hostility I have seen among some circles in German towards the Greeks atm.

Many Greeks, even before Syriza, were working 40 hour weeks for only 1000 Euros per month, hardly enough to live on when you need to pay weekly rent.

Even if they could somehow afford food, their children, etc will have no chance for any savings or inheritance.

Syriza may not necessarily be doing anything right, but they are doing something different. And when so many Greeks have been struggling to literally survive in the past two years, even with slight economic growth figures under New Democracy, their recent defiance against the EU is hardly surprising.

I honestly and earnestly recommend to every north European who believes that Greece must "be responsible" and "stop overspending on luxuries while being lazy and unemployed" to visit the streets of Attica or walk around Thessaloniki for a week. You very much have the right to feel annoyed that the Greeks won't pay you back, but surely you will understand that they simply cannot pay you back.

In the mean time, direct your anger to your national governments who kept giving Greece bailouts this whole time despite it being increasingly clear that Greece was a terriblyrisky investment

Re: Ukraine and Nuclear Weapons.

We may speak of the democratic peace theory - well, technically Ukraine and Russia are both democracies...depending on how you define it, and they are fighting just about as close to a war as you can be without actually being at war.

I must agree that from a military perspective nuclear weapons wouldn't be able to defeat Russia, who of course has nukes of its own, and a much larger land mass, better anti-missile systems, etc. But from a symbolic point of view; no country with nuclear missiles has been invaded by another country, either directly, or through proxies (correct me if I'm wrong).

Im intrigued by the one sided-ness of the Greek crisis here in nothern parts of Europe. Well it goes without saying the situation comes from an ineffective civil society and shit poor politicians the past several decades.

And Greece does need to pay debts. But as I understand they want to do that do, they are just saying that the current plan and the proposed one would lead you know, to starvation.

Its not only "buckling down and working for less" its "How the fuck do you get money for food?"

Writing debt off is not a workable solution, but neither is Merkels Hungerplan. I mean we cant really demand that the Greeks put their own people out in the streets begging for scraps can we? And I don't think people worried about food and shelter are effective workers.

Just my two cents.

There is no question that it is a huge mess. The problem is one of moral hazard. If you permit one country to get away from its obligations then what does that mean for the rest of them? Greece is tiny in comparison and its 90 bill in debt is not market crashing. But Portugal and Ireland are much bigger, and Italy and Spain decidedly more so. If one country gets a big break then everyone will want one and that is unmanageable.

The problem is the acceptance of the Euro by these countries in the first place. but undoing that mistake is not easy though it does solve a lot of the country's problems. Is the asnwer that they have to break from the Euro but that that process must be seen by others to be extremely painful? Enough so that they wouldn't consider it except under truly dire circumstances?

Re: Ukraine and Nuclear Weapons.

We may speak of the democratic peace theory - well, technically Ukraine and Russia are both democracies...depending on how you define it, and they are fighting just about as close to a war as you can be without actually being at war.

I must agree that from a military perspective nuclear weapons wouldn't be able to defeat Russia, who of course has nukes of its own, and a much larger land mass, better anti-missile systems, etc. But from a symbolic point of view; no country with nuclear missiles has been invaded by another country, either directly, or through proxies (correct me if I'm wrong).

Only example I can think about would be Israel. But its kind off 'meeh'.


I get your point, but you answer your own question yourself: "and they are fighting just about as close to a war as you can be without actually being at war."

Thats the thing. If it was clear cut, entire Southern and Western MDs arm up and roll full force into a Ukraine that has working nukes that is one thing.
But in this hybrid war Im quite convinced they would not be able to use them because of the grey area the conflict is in does not give an ability to nuke enemy troops tactically, since they are on your own territory and it can be argue consists to a big degree of your own people, and nuking the aggressor country's territory just means that there is a clear cut open full-scale war, with YOU perhaps being branded an aggressor.

Dis gon b gud

Ukraine was told that if they give up their nukes they would be under the protection of the USA et al. What a bunch of bull shit when the pushing came to shoving and then bullets started flying. Ukraine gave away their teeth and claws and now the bear is smashing them on the rocks. Long live the bear, at least it still knows what teeth and claws are for!

Being in Germany, I'm honestly surprised at how much open hostility I have seen among some circles in German towards the Greeks atm.

Many Greeks, even before Syriza, were working 40 hour weeks for only 1000 Euros per month, hardly enough to live on when you need to pay weekly rent.

Even if they could somehow afford food, their children, etc will have no chance for any savings or inheritance.

Syriza may not necessarily be doing anything right, but they are doing something different. And when so many Greeks have been struggling to literally survive in the past two years, even with slight economic growth figures under New Democracy, their recent defiance against the EU is hardly surprising.

I honestly and earnestly recommend to every north European who believes that Greece must "be responsible" and "stop overspending on luxuries while being lazy and unemployed" to visit the streets of Attica or walk around Thessaloniki for a week. You very much have the right to feel annoyed that the Greeks won't pay you back, but surely you will understand that they simply cannot pay you back.

In the mean time, direct your anger to your national governments who kept giving Greece bailouts this whole time despite it being increasingly clear that Greece was a terriblyrisky investment

As to how much one is paid and whether htat is "enough" has a lot more to do with Purchasing Power Parity than with the actual salary. 1000 Euro may be too little or too much but without knowing more I can't tell from just the #.

The problem many have with Greece is that so much was more wrong than the salaries and amounts borrowed. In Greece huge portions of the population were able to retire at 50 or 55 to a pension (I forget which) if their job was labeled as hazardous. But this came to include categories like hair colorists. Government workers got 13th and 14th monthly payments (on pensions too I believe) as a matter of course. Taxes are nigh uncollectable. The society was never geared around a German monetary policy, yet the dollars were borrowed.

The Germans on the other hand have a different problem. They are benefiting from a Euro that is weaker than a Deutschmark would have been but they aren't owning up that any of their success is due to that.

Margaret Thatcher predicted all of this would happen when she did her best to engineer that the UK stay out of the Euro:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/margaret-thatcher-on-the-euro-2013-4]