Balance Data Since The Patch

No. If a player plays both factions equally, he should get similar results for both factions equally. No matter what the skill level. That is balance.

Thats not at all the definition of balance, sorry :/

You loose a 1v1 game in coh2 cause your ennemy played better than you, or played guard motor (joke joke !)

So the health of a game is dependant upon the top 1% of players? Ignoring the clear balance issues the other 99% have to deal with?

Seems logical...


FYI this game is never going E-sports dude. Ever.

Well sure, this ship has sailed a long time ago. But it was on the agenda.

As for the the health of the game and the playerbase, top 10 or 15% maybe more like. But this is a false dichotomy to start with. Any competitive game will inevitably produce certain people who are more skilled than others, and those are the ones who drive the evolution of the game, represent the zenith of its gameplay and ultimately keep it alive, and yes, this is why they must take precedence.
Thats the nature of the beast if you will, an antagonistic multiplayer mode does not for a casual experience make.

Thats not at all the definition of balance, sorry :/

You loose a 1v1 game in coh2 cause your ennemy played better than you, or played guard motor (joke joke !)

What?

Balance is SUBJECTIVE. There is no such thing as "balance" being this material thing that can achieved and consistent for everyone. It changes all the time even if nothing is actually being changed ingame just because balance is largely dependent on the people playing. Not always because how the game works.

Wrong. Some people are not capable of doing the things you, GDOT or any other top can do. If we all could do it, there wouldn't be top players. People have skill ceilings, and no matter how much you "learn" the game, you';ll only get so good.

"we should cater" - just LOL.

So what you're saying, is that because people literally can't get good, we should make the game easier?

Are you really trying to the do whole "everyone gets a medal" mentality bullshit that is making schoolchildren into entitled, lazy slackoffs?

Starcraft 2 balances at the top. Total War balances at the top. Dawn of war balances at the top. CSGO, Dota 2, LoL, literally every game in existence that is a good strategy game or successful e-sport is balanced from the top.

Jesus, get a grip. Show me a successful e-sport or strategy game that balances for the 99%. You wont find them.

Balance is SUBJECTIVE. There is no such thing as "balance" being this material thing that can achieved and consistent for everyone. It changes all the time even if nothing is actually being changed ingame just because balance is largely dependent on the people playing. Not always because how the game works.

This is indeed correct. However, when that person plays both factions equally, and has a far bigger win percentage with one faction over the other, we cannot say skill has anything to do with it, as it should be roughly equal. If this is the case, something is out of balance.

This is indeed correct. However, when that person plays both factions equally, and has a far bigger win percentage with one faction over the other, we cannot say skill has anything to do with it, as it should be roughly equal. If this is the case, something is out of balance.

He is just better with that faction and/or ennemy were inferior in skill level

So what you're saying, is that because people literally can't get good, we should make the game easier?

Are you really trying to the do whole "everyone gets a medal" mentality bullshit that is making schoolchildren into entitled, lazy slackoffs?

Starcraft 2 balances at the top. Total War balances at the top. Dawn of war balances at the top. CSGO, Dota 2, LoL, literally every game in existence that is a good strategy game or successful e-sport is balanced from the top.

Jesus, get a grip. Show me a successful e-sport or strategy game that balances for the 99%. You wont find them.

Stop with the whole "get good" thing. It makes you sound immature and stupid, which I know you're not.

Can you show me the data or source for your belief that all those games are "balanced from the top"?

And no, I'm not saying make the game easier for the 99%. I'm saying make the game balanced (or as close as can be achieved) for the whole player base. Including the top players.

Can you show me the data or source for your belief that all those games are "balanced from the top"?

And no, I'm not saying make the game easier for the 99%. I'm saying make the game balanced (or as close as can be achieved) for the whole player base. Including the top players.

99% players have to improve and stop blaming balance.

Show me a replay where a player lost despite outplaying is ennemy, did 0 error etc, then we will talk of "balance"

People literally can't get good! That's it.

WE HAVE FOUND THE ROOT OF ALL BALANCE ISSUES

Lol, DUSTY conspiracy axis buffing? You have a very high self importance ego, if you think people actually go around saying stuff like that.

Are you, or are you not buddies with B R A D? Geez, you guys are so buddy, you all put a space between every letter of your names. I wish I could be cool too.

I did not say anything about you having anything to do with any axis buffs.

Not sure what you mean by "you lot" either. My opinion on this matter, is mine and mine alone. If people share this opinion, well, it might just have some legs...

-----------------------
As for the whole double soviets thing, why didn't you say "let's do double soviets" then?
I'll repeat what you said, just for posterity...

DUSTY: "Let's play Axis, I'm fed up of losing today"
LEMON: "OK"


Your words. Not mine.

Oh boy here we go.

I'm going to be very, very frank since you feel the need to bring up the Brad crap again.

All you Angry Bears are the ones that got extremely butthurt over the whole thing, solely because Aerohank, someone who is reknowned for being an extremely poor sport and BMer in 1v1s, got his ass handed to him and felt the need to moan on the forums about it. Not only was it extremely hypocritical, but the reaction the rest of his clanmates had over it by jumping on the train was childish. TAB complains about the transparency of Relic, so what better way to get the only balance dev that interacted with the community banned?

Its not like Brad, Jason, and Matt are the only devs at Relic that can actually play this game at a high level. Fantastic, you just eliminated 1 of them. And you all continue to post the same garbage on the forums, even though all of you are just mediocre 4v4 allied only players that vocally complain about the most asinine things.

Thats what "you lot" are all about.


And if you want to get into semantics about the stream, we lost 3 allied games in a row, just lost our 60 streak, and wanted to default to our unbeaten double Ostheer (which is what we have been doing before this patch).

Guys, you're analyzing this data with wrong approach.

You're splitting players as if they play only one faction. I think that most top player play both factions. Not equally, but still they contribute to both statistics.

I want to say that here we see almost the same sample of players gets different results with different faction.

Stop with the whole "get good" thing. It makes you sound immature and stupid, which I know you're not.

Can you show me the data or source for your belief that all those games are "balanced from the top"?

And no, I'm not saying make the game easier for the 99%. I'm saying make the game balanced (or as close as can be achieved) for the whole player base. Including the top players.

From gamasutra, a video game site focused solely on the business side of game development:

"If you want your game to be competitively played, then focus most on the top-level players. Talk to the best players -- people who play tournaments (if you are so lucky to have tournaments for your game). If you have a high-score leader-board, contact the top people on the list and pick their brain. However, if you want it to be more of a "casual game", then hand the game to random people, even people who've never played a video game before, and see what they do with it. Tailor your balancing work around your audience."

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php?print=1


And are you really trying to argue that games like Dota 2 and CSGO are balanced from anywhere but the top? So they just balance their multimillion dollar tournaments around the 99%?

Oh boy here we go.

I'm going to be very, very frank since you feel the need to bring up the Brad crap again.

All you Angry Bears are the ones that got extremely butthurt over the whole thing, solely because Aerohank, someone who is reknowned for being an extremely poor sport and BMer in 1v1s, got his ass handed to him and felt the need to moan on the forums about it. Not only was it extremely hypocritical, but the reaction the rest of his clanmates had over it by jumping on the train was childish. TAB complains about the transparency of Relic, so what better way to get the only balance dev that interacted with the community banned?

Its not like Brad, Jason, and Matt are the only devs at Relic that can actually play this game at a high level. Fantastic, you just eliminated 1 of them. And you all continue to post the same garbage on the forums, even though all of you are just mediocre 4v4 allied only players that vocally complain about the most asinine things.

Thats what "you lot" are all about.


And if you want to get into semantics about the stream, we lost 3 allied games in a row, just lost our 60 streak, and wanted to default to our unbeaten double Ostheer (which is what we have been doing before this patch).

Are you, or are you not buddies with Brad? If you are, then you have an ear at Relic. Can you ask him about the data, or ask him to ask someone else about it?

I don't give a shit about the rest of the stuff you posted.

People literally can't get good! That's it.

WE HAVE FOUND THE ROOT OF ALL BALANCE ISSUES

I'am happy to help you to understand things

From gamasutra, a video game site focused solely on the business side of game development:
[SNIP]

I asked for you to provide the sources for the games you mentioned. If you can't provide them, I'll have to assume it's your assumption, and not a fact like you presented it.

Are you, or are you not buddies with Brad? If you are, then you have an ear at Relic. Can you ask him about the data, or ask him to ask someone else about it?

I don't give a shit about the rest of the stuff you posted.

*Flashbacks to 2014*

Why even bring that up in the first place? Theres my whole explanation, if you don't give a shit then don't even bother replying.

I can and have asked him in the Private test forums and testing matches before about these proper stats, its not up to him who releases stats or not.

I asked for you to provide the sources for the games you mentioned. If you can't provide them, I'll have to assume it's your assumption, and not a fact like you presented it.

http://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/2013/01/6563/

"Today’s update is a big one. After gathering feedback from pro players around the world, we’ve made significant changes to weapon balance with global changes to recoil that affect all weapons, as well as specific adjustments to rifles, pistols, and the P90. We’ve also made some changes to the messaging system, so check the notes for details."

From Valve themselves. If you think Dota 2 or any of the other mentioned games are any different when they fill the exact same developer intent of esports/competitive play, then you just have your fingers in your ears.

*Flashbacks to 2014*

Why even bring that up in the first place?

Because we were having a "discussion" about data, and validity of the data we do have. That's why.

Pretty simple really.

http://www.gosugamers.net/news/18095-david-kim-answers-to-pro-player-feedback

"Blizzard's lead balance designer sits down to address some of the feedback from professional StarCraft 2 players that Blizzard received during the G-Star event in Korea. Kim talks about many topic that have gathered head like terran MULEs and EMP, larvae inject mechanics and the variety in protoss playstyles."


Please, choke on your words