Wehrmacht has to many "get out of jail free" abilities

Thanks for your replays.

Cookiezandcream - you're right - no thopsons but the point is still valid. It's too much in one - and either this or more raw power. Many players just don't understand what it means to retreat two units (tank+pio)to make repairs. Field presence goes down too much for too long, especially when your opponent just drives back to safety and the crew repairs the vehicle themselves.
Rocket - remember that losing pios while repairing is even bigger manpower drain. Plus the fact that even pios can't repair crits. And repairing a vehicle too close to frontline is basically the player's mistake/conscious risk. More often I saw bazooka crew fininshing off scoutcars after being almost destroyed by them.
I still don't think smoke or blitz should be nerfed before real, especially early game, US "get out of jail abilities" get nerfed too. It's just my opinion.

Thanks for your replays.

Cookiezandcream - you're right - no thopsons but the point is still valid. It's too much in one - and either this or more raw power. Many players just don't understand what it means to retreat two units (tank+pio)to make repairs. Field presence goes down too much for too long, especially when your opponent just drives back to safety and the crew repairs the vehicle themselves.
Rocket - remember that losing pios while repairing is even bigger manpower drain. Plus the fact that even pios can't repair crits. And repairing a vehicle too close to frontline is basically the player's mistake/conscious risk. More often I saw bazooka crew fininshing off scoutcars after being almost destroyed by them.
I still don't think smoke or blitz should be nerfed before real, especially early game, US "get out of jail abilities" get nerfed too. It's just my opinion.

I don't really see the m20 with the zook crew as a "get out of jail card" it is going to set a USF player back quite a bit from the fuel and losing it too early is quite a risk if it doesen't do work to justify it. It having the zook crew is really the only hard counter USF have early on to kubel and scout cars, but we pay for it. I mean it is vulnerable to all the other things scout cars are and when decrewed with the zook crew they are vulnerable to any infantry. Perhaps there is other "get out jail cards" but you didn't list any?

I just do not see it the same it is just one unit we are talking about an ability all your tanks have or can have.

I do see it this way, however. Of course this is just an example. You can always retreat the crew just before the vehicle gets destroyed and still have the free bazooka. I know players who pop the crew out and replace it with echelon and they have a "free" bazooka squad early game. Remeber that m20 can be extremely effective when used properly for its price, even without using its crew at all. Bearing in mind that the crew can repair and cap points its super effective. When an ost player builds a vehicle they can neither cap nor repair with it (much less capping power, if you add the fact that you don't get units for teching, and you need to build sth with engineer! after teching). The fact that you have any vehicle very quickly back on the battlefield because of crew repairs itself is "getting out of jail". But to the point - we must kindly diagree - I really don't think blitz and smoke are OP.

If i'm not mistaken, the vehicle crew (m20) becomes a liability the longer the game drags, as they are expensive to reinforce and lack any combat capability.

M20 bad eh? The thing basically gives you free map control as it can kite anything and has more than enough ways to fight off a 222. Its so durable that small arms fire is worthless unless you got its rear armor parked in front of an mg42 team for more than 10 seconds. Hitting it with an engine snare is worthless if you can't follow up immediately with a kill blow because it will rep engine in .01 seconds. Its not that expensive seeing as how quickly you can still get out a sherman along with all the harassment it can dish out. M20s are more annoying than kubels.

its just one of those units where its only real counter is surviving several minutes till you get a vehicle of your own or being a lot more skilled than your opponent to outplay him. Okw mechanized is your best bet. Everything else is just a struggle.

If i'm not mistaken, the vehicle crew (m20) becomes a liability the longer the game drags, as they are expensive to reinforce and lack any combat capability.

AN that's why you sell them down the river with withdraw and refit. :}

Thanks for your replays.

Cookiezandcream - you're right - no thopsons but the point is still valid. It's too much in one - and either this or more raw power. Many players just don't understand what it means to retreat two units (tank+pio)to make repairs. Field presence goes down too much for too long, especially when your opponent just drives back to safety and the crew repairs the vehicle themselves.
Rocket - remember that losing pios while repairing is even bigger manpower drain. Plus the fact that even pios can't repair crits. And repairing a vehicle too close to frontline is basically the player's mistake/conscious risk. More often I saw bazooka crew fininshing off scoutcars after being almost destroyed by them.
I still don't think smoke or blitz should be nerfed before real, especially early game, US "get out of jail abilities" get nerfed too. It's just my opinion.

"Field presence goes down too much for too long,..."

yeahhh your field presence goes down because you are retreating a pio squad to repair a tank...sure man, because pio has so good figthing capabilities....your front line would be destroyed without that pio squad....


"Rocket - remember that losing pios while repairing is even bigger manpower drain"

yeahhh, because sherman crews and jackson crews cannot be damaged while repairing, yes???


"I still don't think smoke or blitz should be nerfed before real, especially early game, US "get out of jail abilities" get nerfed too. It's just my opinion."

early game "get out of the jail" USF abilities???? lol

Hi. By field presence I mean the fact that both the tank and pio are out of action. Pio is more than 200 manpower which means one gren squad or mg or mortar not on the field. As US you dont need to spend that manpower on that unit because you have the crew. You basically have many more other squads running around. Bear in mind that pios have other jobs to do such us building base structures which means thay can't cap at the same time. Think about when ost has 2 tanks. To repair them quickly U meed 2 pios which means over 400 manpower. Very often you simply dont have 2 pios on the field and Ur tanks must wait to be repaired one after another. Again crews in such situation are "get out of jail" solution. Better players are aware how important pios are and if they eliminate even one they affect ost tanks severely. Generally I can't agree with anything U wrote above. U don't seem to realise how powerful eg flame pios can be.

Hi. By field presence I mean the fact that both the tank and pio are out of action. Pio is more than 200 manpower which means one gren squad or mg or mortar not on the field. As US you dont need to spend that manpower on that unit because you have the crew. You basically have many more other squads running around. Bear in mind that pios have other jobs to do such us building base structures which means thay can't cap at the same time. Think about when ost has 2 tanks. To repair them quickly U meed 2 pios which means over 400 manpower. Very often you simply dont have 2 pios on the field and Ur tanks must wait to be repaired one after another. Again crews in such situation are "get out of jail" solution. Better players are aware how important pios are and if they eliminate even one they affect ost tanks severely. Generally I can't agree with anything U wrote above. U don't seem to realise how powerful eg flame pios can be.

If a SU player is in need to repair a tank, both the tank and the engineer has to retreat too, same with OKW if you don´t have the T2 Build up (the one with the puma and free repairs)...

and of course, if you want to repair a sherman the sherman has to retreat to a safe spot...

So in the end, all factions has to retreat the tank, and only USF doesn´t need a RE to repair it....

That´s why your argument about field presence is wrong in my opinion, because this happens with any faction, if you want to reapir a tank, that tank has to retreat, not only the OST tanks has to retreat....so this left only the pio squad....come on, if your front line suffers because a pio squad is repairing a tank, your front line will suffer the same with the pio helping there...their figthing capabilities are really low man.....



And yeah, USF tank crews can repair by itself, but the tank cannot attack while being repaired if you use your crew to repair,while an P4 can shoot to targets while the pio is repairing.....and in addition, if you want to capture an abandoned tank as USF, you need to purchase a fresh RE squad for that (or loosing a rifle or other squad to use them as tank crew) while with any other faction, you use your cheaper volvks or pios or whatever and then reinforce the rest of the squad at your base...so USF is in a worse spot in that situation.

so USF tank crews have some advantages, but they have some cons too....and that´s why your arguments are wrong in my opinion and USF tank crews are perfectly fine.


anyway, noob here so only my opinion.

But the thing is that the field presence is mostly about what U spend manpower on. U must spend it on the pioneers instead of on other units. Plus I dont agree that pios are so terrible at fighting. Very often they'll win engagements for you as gren vs rifle is usually lost. Grend+pio vs rifles U win. You must remember that overall US has many more units on the field. The pio doing sth all the time behind the lines makes the situation even worse. Ì'm not biasrd sgainst USF but once again I dont think smoke amd blitz is wrong, especially for ost.

But the thing is that the field presence is mostly about what U spend manpower on. U must spend it on the pioneers instead of on other units. Plus I dont agree that pios are so terrible at fighting. Very often they'll win engagements for you as gren vs rifle is usually lost. Grend+pio vs rifles U win. You must remember that overall US has many more units on the field. The pio doing sth all the time behind the lines makes the situation even worse. Ì'm not biasrd sgainst USF but once again I dont think smoke amd blitz is wrong, especially for ost.

yep, of course pio can add somthing, and with flamer they have good figthing capabilities....just trying to show you that USF has not so much advantage due to tank crews...it a common idea here that USF tank crews are unfair and so, but in my noob opinion, there are some cons that balance them....as capturing abandoned vehicles in example where is much expensive for USF than any other faction for the reasons described in my last post.


and well, the situtation you describe about gree+pio > rifle, it is true, but it usually happens in the early game, where there are no tanks or things to repair....in late game, where several squads are figthing in the same place at the same time, what a pio can add to turn the tide of a fight is really really marginal.


but hey, very good way to debate in a forum, I really appreciate your good manners here achpawel....no joke, thanks for such replies in a constructive way....as it should be.

Regards

We don't need to change anything with repair capabilities with the armies. OKW is a special case as they lack armor so they have convenient gimmicks.

Pios should be dropped to 180 manpower or sweepers should help them with repairs.

AN that's why you sell them down the river with withdraw and refit. :}

I thought USF only had 4 commanders. What is this withdraw and refit you are talking about?

I thought USF only had 4 commanders. What is this withdraw and refit you are talking about?

6 like OKW

All these nerf whermact ability ideas need to be considered in the big picture of the actual game flow. For example losing a panther as OST or OKW within a certain window of getting it usually means GG. I think the original concept behind the german armor was to make them more durable with a higher cost. Now if we lower cost of some of the german armor then there would be no need for those abilities.

All these nerf whermact ability ideas need to be considered in the big picture of the actual game flow. For example losing a panther as OST or OKW within a certain window of getting it usually means GG. I think the original concept behind the german armor was to make them more durable with a higher cost. Now if we lower cost of some of the german armor then there would be no need for those abilities.

I think it is better to fix the Ostheer's economical situation first, it is the hardest faction in 1v1 and 2v2 right now. Perhaps than should Relic fix the blitz and the smoke ability.

I think it is better to fix the Ostheer's economical situation first, it is the hardest faction in 1v1 and 2v2 right now. Perhaps than should Relic fix the blitz and the smoke ability.

everything u said is false

everything u said is false

I have never seen you say anything that was nice to a person let alone make a well constructed argument, I consider your opinion nullified.

I have never seen you say anything that was nice to a person let alone make a well constructed argument, I consider your opinion nullified.

not my opinion, its fact http://coh2chart.com/ ost is NOT the weakest faction.

Sorry if im not nice to lairs like you