Shot blockers and bad map balance

Is there a reason why so many maps have such bad balance when it comes to the ability to direct fire on to highly contested points? Here is an example:


This is one of only 2 fuel points on Pavlov's House. You can see that from the north, the shot blockers hinder movement approaching the point and don't allow an MG to cover the point well at all - to even get an MG on this you have to have it basically inside the circle of the point itself. The same goes for AT gun support and even regular small arms fire. Even worse, thre is basically nowhere you can position your units behind the point and still even see the entire cap circle. Meanwhile, the south can approach, cover, and direct fire on this fuel point from all angles, and can see the entire cap circle from basically anywhere. Making it worse, this point is in the very corner of the map so you have basically no flanking opportunities from the north. The only other fuel point on this map is the center fuel point which is accessible to both sides and does not have a similar shot-block bias. So basically the north starting position has a decent chance at just one fuel while the south position has good chance at both, with the corner fuel being practically guaranteed.

The same is true for the center VP on Lanzerath Ambush - on that map the north position can approach, cover, and direct fire on the center VP from every angle, while the south can hardly do it from any angle at all. Considering the importance of holding the center of a map, and the fact that over 90% of games are decided by VPs, this gives the south a huge disadvantage. None of the other VPs on this map give a reciprocal advantage to the southern spawn sites.

this sort of thing is a problem on a lot of maps.

moscow outskirts has that fence on the north cutoff and nothing on the south

Moscow outskirts north is such a shit show.

on that pavlov's example. you have to looks at the whole picture. that trench is more useful for northern team when defending the fuel if they have them. and etc etc.

but that lazerenth ambush mid VP is so unbalanced. its just pure bad design.

on that pavlov's example. you have to looks at the whole picture. that trench is more useful for northern team when defending the fuel if they have them. and etc etc.

but that lazerenth ambush mid VP is so unbalanced. its just pure bad design.

You are joking right? You think a trench makes up for complete lack of vision (one of the most important things in the game) and an inability to support your trenched unit with any kind of AT, MG, or long range fire support? Play the map against good players from the north and you will see what I mean. The most important points on the map either A) shouldn't have shot blockers and vision blockers from only 1 side or B) should at least have the same thing favoring the other side on an equally important point. Pavlov's House doesn't do either.

You are joking right? You think a trench makes up for complete lack of vision (one of the most important things in the game) and an inability to support your trenched unit with any kind of AT, MG, or long range fire support? Play the map against good players from the north and you will see what I mean. The most important points on the map either A) shouldn't have shot blockers and vision blockers from only 1 side or B) should at least have the same thing favoring the other side on an equally important point. Pavlov's House doesn't do either.

play against good teams on pavlov? done it.

a) like steppes? so mg42 + gren can rule?

B) so you want symmetry. dont you think it'll be boring?

i am not disagreeing with you, i do think you might be right but pavlov's house overall is pretty balanced.

The only thing less boring than symmetry is unbalance - right now we have a lot of maps where you can look at the statistics of the map and see that one spawn side has a major advantage over another. You get this because people try to avoid "boring" symmetry without really considering what this does to balance when you are including shot blockers, path blockers, and vision blockers to a map. I'm just suggesting that if you are going to add these things, don't add them so that they hinder only one side of the map. On Pavlov's north spawn is hindered significantly on important points, while south spawn is basically not hindered at all anywhere.

what about the middle fuel and the point right to it? only the south side got the shot blocking fence, bush and collapsed building.

I have to agree with pigsoup. I also think that pavlov's house is one of the best 3v3 maps currently available. Red ball express is probably the best

B) so you want symmetry. dont you think it'll be boring?

When will this stupid meme die that maps can't be interesting and also symmetrical? Maps being hot flaming garbage is probably the number 1 or 2 biggest issues with 3v3 and 4v4 atm and the maps having even the most basic attempt at being symmetrical would be nice.

Why has Steppes; a map that has been in since literally the very first iteration of COH2 any has ever played (Alpha) stuck around? Because it's symmetrical, and therefore more balanced.

I've been more amazed that a map that appeared to have been thrown together for the game's original Alpha has remained effectively unchanged since that time.

Especially considering how much the game has changed since then. I may be tired of Steppes, but I'm even more tired of maps like City 17, or any blizzard map. The symmetry is not a major factor, more the lack of choices overall.

When will this stupid meme die that maps can't be interesting and also symmetrical? Maps being hot flaming garbage is probably the number 1 or 2 biggest issues with 3v3 and 4v4 atm and the maps having even the most basic attempt at being symmetrical would be nice.

Why has Steppes; a map that has been in since literally the very first iteration of COH2 any has ever played (Alpha) stuck around? Because it's symmetrical, and therefore more balanced.

steppes interesting? it is the most boring map. only reason it deserves to stay is that it is abnormally open, which i think the players need from at least one map.

general mud is interesting. it is asymmetrical. it would be much more boring if the southern side also had a church, all the contested points in the middle were exactly the same distance from each other, natural shot blockers replicated with man made shot blockers on the exactly opposite side of the map etc etc. you think LOL/DOTA2 maps are interesting? i think they are absolute bore.



Maps like Pavlov's house is much more interesting. I think it is balanced overall (mostly due to its size imo. only thing good that came out of community map highlight for me). it is asymmetrical and balanced. it is not like symmetrical maps would strictly bring balance anyway since factions are asymmetrical. would be easier i guess.

steppes interesting? it is the most boring map. only reason it deserves to stay is that it is abnormally open, which i think the players need from at least one map.

general mud is interesting. it is asymmetrical. it would be much more boring if the southern side also had a church, all the contested points in the middle were exactly the same distance from each other, natural shot blockers replicated with man made shot blockers on the exactly opposite side of the map etc etc. you think LOL/DOTA2 maps are interesting? i think they are absolute bore.



Maps like Pavlov's house is much more interesting. I think it is balanced overall (mostly due to its size imo. only thing good that came out of community map highlight for me). it is asymmetrical and balanced. it is not like symmetrical maps would strictly bring balance anyway since factions are asymmetrical. would be easier i guess.

Relic literally made a game called DoW (which proved to be a lot more successful than CoH and be more balanced) were almost every map was symmetrical and the maps were still really interesting.

You can have interesting stuff, but it has to be able to be accessed equally or we get Eddlefucked bullshit were whoever gets in the most turbo-durable stone buildings first wins and it's easier for one side to do that then the other.

You can have symmetrical maps without having lane bullshit like DOTA.

As you pointed out balancing can be hard, which is why the maps should be more equal so you take out having to worry about maps favoring sides over others out of the equation (mostly).

General mud is asymmetrical without giving either side a major advantage - proving the general possibility to do this. Pavlov's house did not do a good job in my opinion. Consider this - if you play OKW and want a good place to put your schwer truck, from the south spawn you are going to get an amazing position holding the corner fuel and don't have to worry about long range fire from tanks or AT guns because of the shot blocking and vision blocking terrain combined with the security of being in the corner of the map where you only can be attacked from 2 directions anyway. From here your truck will be able to hit opposing units from any direction at range. From the north you don't have anything like that available. If the map designer didn't actually want to give both teams an equal opportunity for this fuel point, then he should have included a 3rd fuel point where the north side had an equally weighted advantage, and let teams fight it out over the more fairly balanced center fuel point for fuel superiority.

As it is, south gets corner fuel automatically if the south team is competent. Then both sides fight over the center fuel, which would be better balanced except now south has an advantage in this fight because he has more fuel coming in than north does to spend on his units.

If we could look at statistics for win rates based on spawn position I am completely confident that the numbers will prove this to be the case - unofficial numbers from my own observations definitely say so but this is not official and I don't expect you to just take my word for it.

Nearly everyone will tell you that Redball is basically the best 3v3 map. Redball is also basically symmetrical - There isn't really anything on that map that isn't equally available to both teams. Why is Redball not boring then? Because the map is balanced and both teams have equal chances on it. It uses visual effects to achieve some variety without putting a lot of objects in asymmetrically that actually have an effect on pathing, vision, and ability to direct fire onto a point.

General mud is asymmetrical without giving either side a major advantage - proving the general possibility to do this. Pavlov's house did not do a good job in my opinion. Consider this - if you play OKW and want a good place to put your schwer truck, from the south spawn you are going to get an amazing position holding the corner fuel and don't have to worry about long range fire from tanks or AT guns because of the shot blocking and vision blocking terrain combined with the security of being in the corner of the map where you only can be attacked from 2 directions anyway. From here your truck will be able to hit opposing units from any direction at range. From the north you don't have anything like that available. If the map designer didn't actually want to give both teams an equal opportunity for this fuel point, then he should have included a 3rd fuel point where the north side had an equally weighted advantage, and let teams fight it out over the more fairly balanced center fuel point for fuel superiority.

As it is, south gets corner fuel automatically if the south team is competent. Then both sides fight over the center fuel, which would be better balanced except now south has an advantage in this fight because he has more fuel coming in than north does to spend on his units.

If we could look at statistics for win rates based on spawn position I am completely confident that the numbers will prove this to be the case - unofficial numbers from my own observations definitely say so but this is not official and I don't expect you to just take my word for it.

Nearly everyone will tell you that Redball is basically the best 3v3 map. Redball is also basically symmetrical - There isn't really anything on that map that isn't equally available to both teams. Why is Redball not boring then? Because the map is balanced and both teams have equal chances on it. It uses visual effects to achieve some variety without putting a lot of objects in asymmetrically that actually have an effect on pathing, vision, and ability to direct fire onto a point.

can't comment on red ball express. it does look symmetrical and great, but never had a competitive match on that map. maybe when it gets added to the automatch. so i agree symmetrical and interesting maps exist.

it seems as though you are interested in equal opportunities for each and every resource points on their own instead of like me, who'd rather see equal opportunities uneven on several points on the map but eventually well balanced out overall. seeing how you used red ball express as an example, i think it is safe to assume that you relate equal-opportunity to equal-distance... like in steppes. but combine that equal distance with abnormally openness of steppes, that equal distance actually gives kubel an extraordinary advantage at the very start of the game by either forcing a retreat on the first one to units by catching them off guard or making smart players avoid the island all together until a few more units arrive. which will give mg42(s) a plenty of time to set up. what if the point is symmetrical but green covers are set in a way that a battle will occur at long distance. wouldn't that favour axis overall?

I do agree that red ball express looks interesting and symmetrical but symmetry doesn't equate to balance as long as factions are asymmetrical.

by the same reasoning of how far right fuel is favoured towards southern team, the centre fuel is favoured towards northern team. after all, the southern side of centre fuel has shot blockers and movement blockers than northern side just does not have.

as you said, i have seen many times where one okw player on the southern side planted himself up on the far right edge many times. this would have been a problem if pavlov's house was a 4v4 map. but it is 3v3 map and has the size of semi-big 4v4 maps. the allies can use the ample space to maneuver and strand okw player. which can never happen in ungodly sized maps like shittlebruck, lienne forest 4v4 etc etc.

imo, the best thing map makers can do for 2v2+ map balance is not trying to guarantee equal opportunity all the time, but to allow players to use their resources most effectively... as in no pathing issues, ample size, rooms to maneuver etc etc.

It would help if Relic stopped trying to force stuff like mud and maps with lots of deep snow that limit options more than they open them up.

Trying to move heavies/super heavies or really any unit with poor acceleration around on mud maps are horrible, add on top of that the already incredibly bad pathing.

I don't care if every single point is equal opportunity - I am suggesting that if one side has a heavily favored point (fuel, ammo, or VP), then the other side should also have a heavily favored (different) point. Or all important points should be roughly equally favored. It doesn't have to be both, but it can't be neither. I am less concerned about distance then I am about vision, pathing, and firing potential on this map, but all of these heavily contribute to making a map balanced.