How the Game Meta moves.

I'm always impressed how people around here (and over every coh2 forums) discover, the hard way usually, units and capabilities proposed by the game since it very beginning.
I found the M8 canister shot "new" OPness Beeing today the culminating point of this moving meta.

The commander having this unit is pretty old, 6 months old, and pretty bad since this time. So it has never been that used in the past. But the moving meta changes that. This canister shot has always been there and OP. But I remember months ago, it, alone, didn't worst the investment.

I found the moving meta going more and more deeper in an infantry domination of every strate of the game. That blobbing way of fight. And so makes people to try to adapt to it.
From an USF player perspective I found that OKW is really dominating the actual meta, ruling how the game goes, the fashion way of playing that impact at the end all other factions, including and probably impacting the most the Ostheer faction.
The majority of players has now enough experience with WFA, between 6 and 3 months and knows what strategy does work better than others. And different ways of Blobbing volks/obers seem to be that strategy today for OKW.

How did we reach the point to include the M8 in the current meta?
Playing a lot of game in 1vs1 or 2vs2 modes made me release that even if 2 months ago, people where complaining how the PUMA was OP, Till then nothing has change, Relic didn't modify it but who feels it OPness today? few of us simply because nobody built it, it is better, faster and safer to build 2 more volks with shreck than a Puma, and save your fuel for something else. And when someone finally uses it, the lack of experience with the unit negates his effectiveness, because yes you need to micro it to fully use it potential and it is something different than managing a mass of infantry.
When 3 months ago, OKW players were still trying different strats, with Puma and flak-truck, who would have risk to build a M8? the unit would have been ripped off in a matter of second and not being able to use his canister shot ability, the Commander itself was simply considerate as OK in team game and rubbish in 1vs1.
Today its different, it is safer to call one with the disappearance of Pumas and since everyone asks how to counter this so old "insane" unit.
How have we reach this state, here again, thanks to OKW domination and the Kubel modification.
Which has enforce USF players to use more and more the Utility Car to counter the Kubel, making USF players more and more skilled with this cheap unit. And here comes the insta-facility to use the M8, it is approximately the same unit with same stats, you're microing it as the utility car. It takes the same reasonable amount of time to kill the kubel with, and since the Puma has left the meta, you don't really need that mine anymore, you can wait for better ATs. So an instagib squad becomes a far more interesting ability.
Here again, back 3 months ago before the Kubel buff, who was bothering using the utility car? USF players were rushing the half-track or fast Sherman, and so OKW players Pumas.

Ostheer faction is probably the biggest loser in this meta evolution dominated by OKW infantry spam. Because the faction is more sensitive to meta evolution since it needs to strictly adapt its build order.
If we look at USF, SU or OKW, one more core unit or one less doesn't change a lot since you are using almost every time a core aggressive unit with 1 or 2 supportive ones. Ostheer is the opposite, your core units are the supportive ones and the "aggressive" ones provide a kind of support/capping power until you get your T2/T3. I feel that i won a lot of game vs Ostheer simply because he built the wrong support unit to counter me.
The pak nerf probably helped a lot in that, Ostheer lost the ability to hunt down fast with a really high rate of success any light vehicles.

Now the question is if the Infantry blob tactics will continue to dominate the meta or if an abuse of usage of M8 will shut it down and make PUMAs reappear in the field, balancing the whole.

Of course, this is just my opinion/vision of the game evolution so far. And you, what do you think of the meta evolution?

saw it again yesterday, that blobbing dominates the game. I see so many players who can easily dodge any grenades, having counter on the field when the to-counter-units itself gets build, but are still blobbing like hell. In the 12-15 2vs2 random matches i played yesterday only 1(!) team wasnt blobbing (and we hadnt any multiple games against the same enemy). Biggest issue there is really the volksshrek blob. I dont know how you can integrate it to this game that you hide a pretty potent and mobile AT weapon behind a meatshield of 4 men á 23MP.

Yup, people chose blobbing not only because is easier, but also because it's viable and effective. I myself sometimes blob with USF and OKW, because it's easier to win that way, and you can save for KT or a few E8s.
People should be discouraged to blob, and punished if they lose their blob. Right now the game is just a fuel war, float fuel and call in the big guns.
But if the blobs are not so damn effective, you have to get creative and literally use "Military genius" if you want to win, and then you are forced to find your true play style.
Of course there still will be blobbers, bug it's gonna be hard and unforgiving for them.

As i say, if the M8 becomes really popular for USF players, it may downgrade the popularity of blobbing for OKW players, forcing them to build armored vehicle to tackle it. In the same way, people would use the M8 less.

And so the meta would move again into something different and not necessarily going back into blob tactics.
If I keep the reco commander available in my commander pool, maybe in a near future, OKW players will recognize it and so not use their blob tactic at all, or at least not until they are sure I'm not selecting this particular commander during the game.

As i say, if the M8 becomes really popular for USF players, it may downgrade the popularity of blobbing for OKW players, forcing them to build armored vehicle to tackle it. In the same way, people would use the M8 less.

And so the meta would move again into something different and not necessarily going back into blob tactics.
If I keep the reco commander available in my commander pool, maybe in a near future, OKW players will recognize it and so not use their blob tactic at all, or at least not until they are sure I'm not selecting this particular commander during the game.

Nah, it'd still be "blobbing" because that's all OKW can do with tier 1 units. Where else would OKW spend his MP while waiting for fuel?

I think you are making a wrong analysis. Let me explain.

-Canister shot was always OP and is still behind a crappy commander on 1v1 and too situational for 2v2 (double pathfinder nuking truck).

The commander being not part of the vanilla ones, made it so that till they released them for buying and/or people got them through warspoils, it was pretty strange to find it on automatch early on. And any of the other 5 commanders were better at the time*

*Dodge commander was cheesy good. Nowadays is crap.

-Canister shot is more of a problem for OH than OKW. Remember this. You have enough tools to deal with it early on in comparison to OH.

-With the new infantry grouping, getting wipes became really easy.

-USF is more playable nowadays.
People use to avoid playing USF, unless it was for fun. Nerfs to OKW (income, Kubel) or OH (paks) made it more viable. Specially with the point mention before (Scott and HE wiping squad left n right).

-Puma still remains a safe great choice. LMG damage and enough AT potential to deal with anything USF can bring into the table (except E8) and mid-early late game of SU (anything before call in tanks).

With the new flak mechanics (not missing everysingle shot), the Flak HT is way more reliable than before. So if you want to go for a more agressive choice, you can go for it that it will still soft/hard counter any of the USF light vehicles.

I may add that the decrease on popularity of M3 (that 10 fuel increase on T1 makes it arrive 45s later + less DPS on CE) makes 1 less reason to think of going Puma. Haven't seen double M3 on a while.

-It's safer to rely on a solid build/tech rather on 1 unit. Medic > Flak HQ. Going Repair truck first will eventually lead to a huge mp bleed.

-In the same line of thought, AA HT is more of a risk option, even against OH. You can get an M20 which won't delay your tech as much and it's way more micro-able than the HT.
People learnt how to M20 push lone squads with shrecks.


TL;DR
-Canister was always OP on a crap commander n unit.
-USF is more playable.
-Grouping of units gives more chances of wipe
-Meta hasn't change as much, specially OH vs USF match up.

TL;DR
-Canister was always OP on a crap commander n unit.
-USF is more playable.
-Grouping of units gives more chances of wipe
-Meta hasn't change as much, specially OH vs USF match up.

I have never said Canister Shot wasn't OP before, but never used to his maximum potential because the M8 had no room to exist in the meta at that time.
About the grouping, I'm not really sure it change anything with the canister shot. Canister shot doesn't work vs cover - or at least the few times I tried it didn't do much.

I'm not sure if the USF is more playable than before the Kubel Up patch. It is definitively more playable since it last little readjustment for sure. Is the Pak nerf alone explains the M8 becoming suddenly appealing vs Ostheer? To me, not that much, the pak nerf doesn't make the Reco commander suddenly more interesting to play than any other commander. The pak nerf gives more room to USF to use light vehicles in general and not anymore only rushing to sherman after the lieutnant - in other terms, less relying on Rifles to maintain the pressure early game. What I say is this new diversity given to USF players in their play style is a problem for Ostheer, it is much more difficult for them to build their BO and have the right counter at the right time. Before a pak was enough to enforce USF to go for infantry, less punitive in case of failure than losing a M20 or a Half-trak in 2 seconds. And so Ostheer could rely more on their MGs and Mortar.

For the rest of your argumentation, we are agreeing, you are simply focusing on units and factions when I talk about play style. The Puma remains a great asset, but far more difficult to manage than 2/3 volks shreck in a group.

The way OKW players are focusing on building squads more and more and less and less light and medium vehicles make people react on looking for dedicated counter until the puma get back into the meta to counter it.

Canister shot crits infantry. It doesn't matter how many pellets hits you, if it touches you, you are dead.

20 range
50 munition

40 damage in a 3 radius with low penetration (~3)
Critical: Any infantry unit taking damage dies.


Regarding BO as USF, i'm still seeing the same thing everytime. Nothing has change in a general sense.

The way OKW players are focusing on building squads more and more and less and less light and medium vehicles make people react on looking for dedicated counter until the puma get back into the meta to counter it.

Because with med trucks being a must, going puma means pretty much giving up T4. I am playing around with spec ops commander + T2&T3 builds but lack of obers is pretty meh without panzerfusiliers or fallschrmjaegers.

I wouldn't call anything "a solid-meta" untill Relic decides to keep that unchanged; but as ever people tend to abuse/cheese to win...that's not meta. Be it:

OKW just blobs

Soviets just abuse con spam into call-ins in 1v1s, almost unbeatable "tactics" in the hands of no skill abusers...#e-sport

Call-ins just still rape everything...

M8 Greyhound's cannister shot is just retarded...

Kübeljesus is still OP...

Obers are still broken...

Canister shot crits infantry. It doesn't matter how many pellets hits you, if it touches you, you are dead.

20 range
50 munition

40 damage in a 3 radius with low penetration (~3)
Critical: Any infantry unit taking damage dies.


Regarding BO as USF, i'm still seeing the same thing everytime. Nothing has change in a general sense.

What did you expect? 3RE into 1Rifle + Capt? Of course the general meta doesn't change a lot, but as Ostheer you'll probably see more tentative with light vehicles since the pak nerf.

Because with med trucks being a must, going puma means pretty much giving up T4. I am playing around with spec ops commander + T2&T3 builds but lack of obers is pretty meh without panzerfusiliers or fallschrmjaegers.

Who cares? not me. I'm not telling you if it is good or bad, I'm telling it happens. And I'm also suggesting you that if in your next game you face a M8 that ripe off half of your blob/squads on the field making you bleed as hell and losing the game, you are a smart guy and you'll build a PUMA to counter it same if it delays your T4. And so the OKW -all infantry into T4- meta would decrease.

Who cares? not me. I'm not telling you if it is good or bad, I'm telling it happens. And I'm also suggesting you that if in your next game you face a M8 that ripe off half of your blob/squads on the field making you bleed as hell and losing the game, you are a smart guy and you'll build a PUMA to counter it same if it delays your T4. And so the OKW -all infantry into T4- meta would decrease.

But yet so many whiners on USF vs OKW matchups

What did you expect? 3RE into 1Rifle + Capt? Of course the general meta doesn't change a lot, but as Ostheer you'll probably see more tentative with light vehicles since the pak nerf.

The pak nerf wasn't enough to make any change on the meta of USF vs OH. That's what i'm trying to say.

"What I say is this new diversity given to USF players in their play style is a problem for Ostheer, it is much more difficult for them to build their BO and have the right counter at the right time. Before a pak was enough to enforce USF to go for infantry, less punitive in case of failure than losing a M20 or a Half-trak in 2 seconds. And so Ostheer could rely more on their MGs and Mortar."

Enough to save any light vehicle from a certain death. Before the nerf, a vehicle hit by the pak once was death whatever you were trying to do to save it (except from the M20 smoke). Now, if you are enough reactive, you can save it.

I have saved a lot of my half-traks and Stuarts from situations where before the nerf the unit would have been dead.

So maybe its only me (maybe I have that much improve my skills) but I feel a new time the pleasure to diversify my BO and not only go lieutenant because it is cheaper in fuel for my fast Sherman.

I would love to see the meta with more extended mid game engagements, only heavy armor or call in super late in the games. I want to see more T-34s vs P4 + Stug battles instead of these heavy armor mess.

I would love to see the meta with more extended mid game engagements, only heave armor or call in super late in the games. I want to see more T-34s vs P4 + Stug battles instead of these heavy armor mess.

I gave a lot of thought into that area but Relic clearly wants players to utilize heavy armor within a reasonable gameplay time (around 30 minute mark), so I doubt anything is going to change in that regard.

Either it's going to escalate into bigger units quickly or it'll be too prohibiting to field them at all which would be just as bad.

Whats your stance on this matter?

I would only like to se more vehicles and light tanks in this game not only Tiger rush, sherman rush and any other late game rush. I am a big fan of Mecha company (team game player so i can use it) and making Dodge and the M3 something that you can consider core unit would be nice.

Call in meta should change, it's just not fun to face hordes of grens, pgrens and then paks into tiger. Call in tanks arrive too quickly and is a problem in my eyes.

I gave a lot of thought into that area but Relic clearly wants players to utilize heavy armor within a reasonable gameplay time (around 30 minute mark), so I doubt anything is going to change in that regard.

Either it's going to escalate into bigger units quickly or it'll be too prohibiting to field them at all which would be just as bad.

Whats your stance on this matter?

I would love to see a Relic create a separate balance patch for 4 V 4 but that is almost impossible to do. I think they can change some code for 4 v 4 matches to slow down teching for heavy armor/call ins. Aside from that, I don't think this issue can be resolve too easily.

Call in meta should change, it's just not fun to face hordes of grens, pgrens and then paks into tiger. Call in tanks arrive too quickly and is a problem in my eyes.

limit 1 heavy tank at a time. remove its feul cost and increase their cp requirement by 2.