Solution to late game madness?

Just got out of another game culminating in 2-3 tigers per player. I think the direct issue is the opel/tiger doctrine being such a no-brainer, but I think a balanced solution would be to add fuel and possibly munition upkeep. Currently the upkeep is 4mp reduction per pop. I think adding a fuel reduction to this would help prevent heavy armour spam, as it would become exponentially harder to build them the more you have - which is surely how it should be. Then when they get destroyed its relatively easy to get one back out again. Since the issue isn't the unit on its own - that's manageable, its just when you have 3 or 4 on the field at a time the soviets simply don't have enough powerful AT to counter it. Last game we were relying on 152mm howi's to try and disperse tiger blobs, since non of the USSR offmaps can counter armour (I managed to kill 3 with one, so it works =P), that's just not right.

thoughts?

I don't really like that idea, since it would just close the gap between a losing player and a winning one. Upkeep cost, in it's current form, is so punitive that upkeep on fuel would be taking it too far. Comebacks happen way too often as it is.

Is that a bad thing? I think the general agreement is there way too much resources flying around anyway

Only because upkeep is so high; come release the game will hopefully be balanced so that floating fuel doesn't really become a problem.

I think the general agreement is there way too much resources flying around anyway

If you were talking about artillery in its many many MANY forms I would agree with you. The artillery action in each game needs to be cut in half at least IMO.

What you should do is invest more in infantry and keep your opponent cut off from fuel. Have a scout car or halftrack with a flame unit to run around and destroy the fuel points the german player builds. Smart management of your own units will go along way too. I usually have some vet 2/3 conscripts with AT nades on top of 3 - 4 T34 or Su-85 tanks and a field gun by the time a tiger comes out. If your unit preservation and map control has been decent through out the game, you should have plenty of combined arms power to take down the tiger.

'the tiger' is not so much a problem. It's 'the tigers' that are maddening. I'll admit it's probably our teams fault if we can't prize the fuel from the icy grip of layered MG bunkers and various support weapon goodies allowing them to pump these out, but I've had several games though were we've been dominating map control and got them down to 50pts, yet the enemy with fuel OP's and opel blitz trucks in their remaining sectors allow them to ride out with multiple tigers and panthers for which soviets have no deterrent for when massed.

I take it you are talking 4v4 or 3v3? If so, balance is never going to be good in those games modes, it's just spam spam spam to win and that's it. Just accept that it will never get any better because it wont.

How about making a 1 or 2 Tiger on the map cap? If a player has fielded a tiger, then the others won't be able to do it.

May I refer you all to this post from Ahenian, which perfectly describes the benefits gained from the Opel Blitz truck.

There is a good way to stop the late game madness , increase the supertanks pop requirement and nerf them . Srslly , this just happened , 1 IS2 3/4 0r 4/5 health , i fausted it , then i garrisoned schrecked grens on a house neraby to start shooting at it , after some time i made an ausult somewhere else to draw his attention and threw railgun arty on it , the result was for it to be at a sliver of health and immobilised so i sent down 1 p4 command tank and a stug to finish it by firing at its side , and it almost killed them , literally if he had fired at my p4 which was at half health instead of the stug he d have killed them , which is nothing sort of ridiculous .

On countering tigers with soviets i ve found that the t34 ram can give you a great advantage but to finish the enemy supertank you really need one of your own supertanks otherwise it takes so long that your opponent will come to the rescue . In team games IMO 1 of the soviets should go for t34 spam

I made the experience that you have to play for ISU 152 / IS2 to counter the really big tanks. Paks do not really penetrate the tanks and if they do, they don't do much damage. At nades are good for an engine damage but not more.
I think it would be good to increase the damage of at nades and paks. The way it is now they are pretty useless in the lategame and you can't play any other docs except those two...

I just had the inverse experience. Was playing germans and took the MortarHT commander. I'm in the enemy base with flammenwerfer HT and a Panther, with the entire map capped, when suddenly an IS-2 rolls out and demolishes everything. I built more Panthers and Paks, but nothing could stop it

As German, without T-34 to disable the "soviet Tiger", what are you supposed to do?
At the moment, the guy with the heavy tank commander wins the game

I just had the inverse experience. Was playing germans and took the MortarHT commander. I'm in the enemy base with flammenwerfer HT and a Panther, with the entire map capped, when suddenly an IS-2 rolls out and demolishes everything. I built more Panthers and Paks, but nothing could stop it

As German, without T-34 to disable the "soviet Tiger", what are you supposed to do?
At the moment, the guy with the heavy tank commander wins the game

^this

The reason everyone goes for the IS-2, ISU, or Tiger doctrines is because these doctrinal tanks are too powerful lategame for anything else to really deal with it. Soviets can use T-34s to ram Tigers, while Germans can get out an Elefant (although significantly more expensive and still not as useful as T-34 ram against a singe heavy tank), but if you play safe and support the tank with infantry and weapon teams, it's almost impossible to beat.

In 1v1 this isn't as much of an issue, because you can beat your opponent before either player has enough CPs, fuel, and MP for a heavy tank. In 2v2 and up, doctrines like Jaeger Infantry and the HTD/PPsH Conscript doctrine are significantly worse, since players of similar skill will likely be able to hold on until the lategame when heavy tanks can come out.

Keep in mind that heavy tanks require an extreme amount of fuel and MP, so it's certainly possible to prepare enough AT to deal with heavy tanks. Issue with this is preparing early AT reduces your manpower income by a lot without actually helping you hold territory against infantry, so unless you know when the heavy tank is coming out, preempting the opponent's unit construction can be incredibly detrimental.

>>>PROPOSED SOLUTION<<<

In all seriousness, we can't yet judge it. Balance has not been polished, and we don't know if other big tanks will be in the game. For all we know, there's a jagd or a king tiger, as well.

Regardless of this, I HATE the T34's ram ability. Its the closest thing to an I-win button in CoH2. You leave the enemy tank defenseless, while crippling your mobility. Personally, I think the viability of the ram ability vs heavier tanks should be reduced.

That said, I think buffing German tanks in favor of their increased cost is a mistake. Back in vCoH's early days, german tanks were simply never used, no matter how powerful, because their cost was prohibitive.

The solution lies in improving the synergy of combined arms to win engagements. Right now, shreks are not viable because of how damn expensive they are. In vCoH, shreks were your only real infantry AT solution, but it was useful because Allied armor was fragile. In CoH2, you've got armor that's almost as heavy as the Axis.

>>>PROPOSED SOLUTION<<<

In all seriousness, we can't yet judge it. Balance has not been polished, and we don't know if other big tanks will be in the game. For all we know, there's a jagd or a king tiger, as well.

Regardless of this, I HATE the T34's ram ability. Its the closest thing to an I-win button in CoH2. You leave the enemy tank defenseless, while crippling your mobility. Personally, I think the viability of the ram ability vs heavier tanks should be reduced.

That said, I think buffing German tanks in favor of their increased cost is a mistake. Back in vCoH's early days, german tanks were simply never used, no matter how powerful, because their cost was prohibitive.

The solution lies in improving the synergy of combined arms to win engagements. Right now, shreks are not viable because of how damn expensive they are. In vCoH, shreks were your only real infantry AT solution, but it was useful because Allied armor was fragile. In CoH2, you've got armor that's almost as heavy as the Axis.

Last time i played ram could be stoped with a faust so its not that OP and actually forces some combined arms play

I think ram shouldn't disable the main gun. At least not at full health. Or maybe make it that as soon as the pioneers start repairing the main gun is the first thing that is fixed.