ISU or JT balance suggestion

The latest patch reverted the manual fire mode as devs felt it made ISU useless. here is a suggestion that might help balance,

I play warthunder and i got the idea from there, increase the reload time of ISU and JT to 30+ seconds and increase the damage output on medium tanks like it should 1 shot kill medium tanks and do more than 60% damage + some vehicle crits to heavy tanks but will take 30 to 35 secs to reload and make this unit a bit slower than it is so this will give the user an edge when the skrimish starts but unit wont be abusive.

I believe in actual WW2 these things took about 30+secs to reload even with a trained crew so its only fair to implement the same.

1-shotting anything from range is bad design because it doesn't allow for any counterplay. Your opponent can do nothing about this.

That's why the sturmtiger had its range slightly reduced so it couldn't wipe a whole blob from the fog.

1-shotting anything from range is bad design because it doesn't allow for any counterplay. Your opponent can do nothing about this.

That's why the sturmtiger had its range slightly reduced so it couldn't wipe a whole blob from the fog.

may be do heavy damage with gun barrel damage on medium tanks like P4s shermans and T34s , excluding panther.

I know 1 shotting is bad thats why i suggested a long reload time and slow movement so there is time for a flank or a counter play.

In warthunder this thing one shots mediums and has a very weak side and rear armor so may be include a very weak side and rear armor that will cause crew hits when ISU takes damage from side that will encourage flanking.

I think the JT is more or less fine, maybe a slight (180) hp reduction but also a slight cost reduction? I'd like to see less of a drastic power level between the super heavies and the other tanks (mainly mediums).

As for the ISU, I think it needs some combination of an hp decrease (180-240), removal of the mounted MG, reduction to 60 range, a major AoE profile redesign and/or drastically less penetration.

It absolutely needs focused sight removed and concrete round should probably replace it's vet 1 ability, or be removed entirely. It's so un-necessary.

Right now the ISU is simply too good at killing tanks (it is so strong vs Panthers/Tigers and even gives the Elefant some trouble) as well as 1 shotting squads. I'd start with a drastic AoE profile change to where the radius of 1-shotting infantry models is much smaller. It would probably still kill 1-2 models per shot, and have a chance to wipe non-full Hp squads but by the time the ISU hits you really should have healing.

A range reduction would let AT guns sort of "wall" for you, any time the ISU shoots at least the AT guns could shoot back. Right now the only (semi) counter to the ISU is the JT/Elefant, and those can really only play keep-away because of the ISU's massive HP pool and the insane (but necessary) reload on the JT/Ele.

Removal of the 0.50 cal mounted MG would let schreck flanks actually do things to the ISU, right now the mounted MG just shreds infantry while they try to get into schreck range.

Penetration nerf would let Tigers/Panther front armor absorb shots to better spot for other AT, but with other nerfs this probably wouldn't be necessary. I'd much rather see the ISU performance vs infantry be drastically toned down but keep it's AT capabilities.

Oh and one sweeping change I'd make - heavies no longer crew shock other tanks. It's a really stupid RNG mechanic that can swing games for no reason at all. Target weak point should probably be redesigned as well.

I think the JT is more or less fine, maybe a slight (180) hp reduction but also a slight cost reduction? I'd like to see less of a drastic power level between the super heavies and the other tanks (mainly mediums).

As for the ISU, I think it needs some combination of an hp decrease (180-240), removal of the mounted MG, reduction to 60 range, a major AoE profile redesign and/or drastically less penetration.

It absolutely needs focused sight removed and concrete round should probably replace it's vet 1 ability, or be removed entirely. It's so un-necessary.

Right now the ISU is simply too good at killing tanks (it is so strong vs Panthers/Tigers and even gives the Elefant some trouble) as well as 1 shotting squads. I'd start with a drastic AoE profile change to where the radius of 1-shotting infantry models is much smaller. It would probably still kill 1-2 models per shot, and have a chance to wipe non-full Hp squads but by the time the ISU hits you really should have healing.

A range reduction would let AT guns sort of "wall" for you, any time the ISU shoots at least the AT guns could shoot back. Right now the only (semi) counter to the ISU is the JT/Elefant, and those can really only play keep-away because of the ISU's massive HP pool and the insane (but necessary) reload on the JT/Ele.

Removal of the 0.50 cal mounted MG would let schreck flanks actually do things to the ISU, right now the mounted MG just shreds infantry while they try to get into schreck range.

Penetration nerf would let Tigers/Panther front armor absorb shots to better spot for other AT, but with other nerfs this probably wouldn't be necessary. I'd much rather see the ISU performance vs infantry be drastically toned down but keep it's AT capabilities.

Oh and one sweeping change I'd make - heavies no longer crew shock other tanks. It's a really stupid RNG mechanic that can swing games for no reason at all. Target weak point should probably be redesigned as well.

I disagree about some parts you wrote about the ISU. Lowering its damage versus tanks is going to hurt the SOviet AT a lot. SOviets already lack AT to deal with heavier German tanks. ISU's AT abilities is really the last hope to fight heavies such as KT and Jagdtiger. It is a very delicate issue so I am just pointing out that SOviets lack hard AT. Nerfing ISU is going to destroy the 4v4 game mode even further.

I like your Jagdtiger changes. I think they are alright. Personally, I would like to see its ability to shoot through objects removed. It would prevent players form just camping behind a building and shooting through it without any counterplay.

Personally, I would cut the ISU range down to 60 and buff its AT. The ISU would still be powerful but would have to enter into harms way to do damage. I would also remove the focus sight ability.

ISU and Jagdtiger are very difficult to balance. I would love Relic to keep these units as authentic as possible; The ISU is a very powerful assault gun and the Jagdtiger is a well-armed and heavily armored tank destroyer. These units should be powerful but come with weaknesses.

Yeah I agree with you on not nerfing the AT of the ISU Ninja. In my post I mentioned that would be my least preferred change in an attempt to balance the ISU. As long as it gets nerfed against infantry it can retain, or maybe slightly increase it's AT capabilities.

My main qualm with the ISU is that it 1 shots infantry so often. I also dislike what the ISU, JT and Ele do to the team-game meta. We've been playing super heavy tank wars meta for too long now. Either tournaments should start banning these commanders or Relic needs to hit them hard with the nerf bat.

Maybe my vision for the game is different from Relic's or what the community wants but I want to see more mediums in the game. To accomplish that I think the heavies and super-heavies should come down in their relative power level when compared to the mediums. I mean, right now how many T34/76 does it take to kill a Tiger? My gut guess would be a minimum of 3. That's already way more fuel than the tiger, even discounting the initial 120 you pay to tech. Anyways I guess that is a topic for a different discussion.

CieZ would you mind making a thread about the late game thing? I know its on Relic's mind and I've got some ideas about it too.

CieZ would you mind making a thread about the late game thing? I know its on Relic's mind and I've got some ideas about it too.

Uhh I'm not exactly sure what you mean, I assume you mean having more of a transition between early, mid, late, and super late game? If so I could make a post or video about it yeah. I'll just have to get my thoughts together so that it is coherent.

I was thinking mid game armor comes in too late or late game heavies come in too early.

Reduce Jagds Damage and Penetration when shooting through buildings, etc.

For ISU reduce its crew shock/crits vs tanks.

I was thinking mid game armor comes in too late or late game heavies come in too early.

Mid game armor doesn't come too late imo, it's just the heavies come too early.
+- 12min for a p4 is very fine I think.
Otherwise we're back to 8 min's T34's and stuff..

I disagree about some parts you wrote about the ISU. Lowering its damage versus tanks is going to hurt the SOviet AT a lot. SOviets already lack AT to deal with heavier German tanks. ISU's AT abilities is really the last hope to fight heavies such as KT and Jagdtiger. It is a very delicate issue so I am just pointing out that SOviets lack hard AT. Nerfing ISU is going to destroy the 4v4 game mode even further.

I like your Jagdtiger changes. I think they are alright. Personally, I would like to see its ability to shoot through objects removed. It would prevent players form just camping behind a building and shooting through it without any counterplay.

Personally, I would cut the ISU range down to 60 and buff its AT. The ISU would still be powerful but would have to enter into harms way to do damage. I would also remove the focus sight ability.

ISU and Jagdtiger are very difficult to balance. I would love Relic to keep these units as authentic as possible; The ISU is a very powerful assault gun and the Jagdtiger is a well-armed and heavily armored tank destroyer. These units should be powerful but come with weaknesses.

+1 to this. for ISU just made it less accuracy against infantry. It's fine as it is Vs Axis heavies.

well another suggestion Keep everything asit is a add an additional commander to OKW with callin for Panther 2 with IR scope and 88MMgun, i believe ISU 152s were fielded only in 1944 so its only fair to get the upgraded panthers as its opp. USe of IR scope on panther is upto your imagination but make it so that it can counter or atleast challenge ISUs.

change OKWs non doctrinal panther model to Ausf F model with the weird 76MM gun upgrade so it differs from Ostheer models and has better penetration but bad AI capabilities.

well another suggestion Keep everything asit is a add an additional commander to OKW with callin for Panther 2 with IR scope and 88MMgun, i believe ISU 152s were fielded only in 1944 so its only fair to get the upgraded panthers as its opp. USe of IR scope on panther is upto your imagination but make it so that it can counter or atleast challenge ISUs.

change OKWs non doctrinal panther model to Ausf F model with the weird 76MM gun upgrade so it differs from Ostheer models and has better penetration but bad AI capabilities.

No need for Panther 2... Jagdtiger can already counter the ISU. For nondoctrinal options, aggressive use of the Panther is quite good. Blitzing Panther is the fastest vehicle in the game.