Let me clear up some things about Relic and AA

Hello internet strangers and all my beautiful Bears,

I had the last minute opportunity to hang with Relic in Vancouver. If you all had a chance to catch the stream today with Quinn and Cynthia I was the special guest at the end. I had to sign my life away to a 17 page NDA before being able to enter the main office so I can't talk about specifics. Don't even think about hitting me up for inside information, I'll maul your face. There are some things I can talk about though and that is what this thread is about.

• Yes, they ACTUALLY read the forums. Both of them. When I say they I don't mean just the select staff whom post. The large majority of the staff lurk. It would be safe to assume that they know and are working on a lot of our pain points. I mean this in the grand sense of the title and not just balancing.
  
• Yes, they also have a QA department and read/collect/act on bug splats.
  
• Yes, the NDA is real and it sucks. Unfortunately, it would appear that Relic is rather risk adverse and the legal barriers are preventing staff from communicating with us in a more open fashion. Cynthia eluded to this during the stream. It is a tough spot to be in.
  
• The staff I got to meet are passionate and personally invested in the titles success. Some of the posts we make here affect them in real life. Take this into account in the future. I'm guilty of some less than flattering posts about Relic but I try to be constructive in my criticism.
  
• From what I observed, and I was not allowed entry into some places, Relic is working on enough stuff and things that CoH2 will be actively supported for a long time. Think years, not months.
  
• Cynthia, the new Relic Community Manager does play the game. She also understands a lot of the communities pain points and is making things happen.
  

Now lets talk about the Bear in the room. The upcoming expansion Ardennes Assault. I got to play it for about 2 1/2 hours in their party LAN room. I am not a single player guy, I never played the vanilla single player nor have I purchased the WFA add on. It really never appealed to me.

Given the NDA, here is my review of AA in all of its details.



Cynthia, Mitch, Dave. The three of you were great to me and displayed passion, a positive attitude, and sounded like you were pretty alright at the game. You are welcome to join The Angry Bears anytime. It is the highest compliment I can give you.

Much rawr,

President Napalm

I would ask the community to support Relic. Consider pre-ordering AA as a sign of that support.

First

If what you say is true about Relic staff reading the forums (certainly not all but I'm sure some of the more passionate devs like to lurk here) I really do feel for them. It can't be easy working working so hard and seeing your hard work not live up to it's full potential because of management/publisher pressures. I think by now anyone with a clue should know that the a good portion of the people at Relic are genuinely passionate about gaming and designing games that they would like others to enjoy. I'm sure it can't be easy, especially for some of the original vcoh devs, to see what has happened to Relic with the THQ debacle.

In saying that, it's clear that many of the problems with coh2 stem from management/publisher pressures to produce more profit from the CoH Title and less time spent on balancing/bug fixing. This isn't just an issue with CoH, it's happening to all PC titles as the devs who are passionate about gaming have less and less control of all aspects of game design.

If the devs at Relic really DO care about their work so much, they should be doing what they can to un-fuck the toxic corporate atmosphere at Relic/SEGA (the upper levels of Relic at least). Not an easy thing to do, considering how many game devs without work there is in the world. Either they try fix Relic (and therefore the entire CoH franchise) from within or they do what some of their colleagues from the past have done and leave to start their own studios/join existing outfits.

For all we know there is already some dev(s) inside Relic who care about what is happening to the CoH franchise and are trying to change the way things work in Relic. If this is the case (as it sounds from your post Napalm) then not many outside of Relic would know because of the stifling-NDA and gestapo-like secrecy of Relic/SEGA. I really do hope this is the case, as I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed and gained literally THOUSANDS of hours play in both DoW and CoH. If there really is anyone from Relic who is doing this, please, keep it up, you're doing god's work

Btw Cynthia if you are reading I'm sorry for the stream trolling, creepy foot fetish was just the first thing that got me a ban so I kept at it

Dat feel when Bropalm is at Relic when I'm at work

Cool stream though!

*upcoming *cough* *cough* Bear tournament *NDA* cough*

...Don't even think about hitting me up for inside information, I'll maul your face...

The best warning ever.

So, I guess AA was so good that you actually bought the DLC? I guess I should preorder it as well.

Did they try to justify the price or did they blame it on Sega?

The best warning ever.

So, I guess AA was so good that you actually bought the DLC? I guess I should preorder it as well.

i imagine it would look something like this. (because visual aids are awesome!)

Since they are lurking and we come here to compliment, I'd like to say that with all things that sometimes the community says, I enjoyed a lot of this game so far and really, really think that this patch is such a huge leap forward.

Now, I'd like a bonus. Pretty please?

i imagine it would look something like this. (because visual aids are awesome!)

Can't see properly but is that Nicholas "VonIvan" Cage in that suit?




Or is that one of Napalm's demo to other bears on how to maul.

Well the fact that they actually read these forums concerns me a little bit. Sure, it's verry good for showing that they care and stuff. But the quality of posting it's low, the quantity of bias here is strong and can carry you away. Hopefully they have an objective and hard-working test team, because just implementing what seems to be "experts" comments and analyzis can be deceiving and can create in fact bigger problems.
There are some players here that know the game verry well and can make flawless analyzis but this may contain a powerfull underground bias => sounds perfect on the surface but if implemented would be a balance disaster.
You can recognize such people by the fact that in more than 90% of their posts are arguing in one side's favor. I think that the most dangerous for balance are those who are constantly defending Allied, because they think that they have the "moral" advantage (if you like Axis side and defend the balance if they are exagerrating you probably are a hidden nazi). These people forget that it's just a game, and, in order to be enjoyable, it needs as much balance as it can get. Easy victories are frustrating both for the winner and the looser.

Good job Nape, thanks for clearing this out

much rawr, such maul

I am proud to be a peasant of this man :') Great job oh great leader I knew I was right all the time

Here is my review of AA in all of its details.

Sorry man, I believe you, seriously.

AA can be all the good you say and even more, but 40€ for additional content is just crazy.
I will wait and buy it at half price.

Did they try to justify the price or did they blame it on Sega?

Sorry man, I believe you, seriously.

AA can be all the good you say and even more, but 40€ for additional content is just crazy.
I will wait and buy it at half price.

AA is not an expansion. It is a new game that happens to share a program Short Cut.

I would ask the community to support Relic. Consider pre-ordering AA as a sign of that support.

In a world where everybody thinks 40 EURO is to much, this phrase of yours sounds pretty odd ya know?

I got excited for AA for a second then I remembered it costs almost a full new game. Even if it is a unique singleplayer experience, its still the same game. It doesn't matter how much more content AA adds, if its the same engine and mechanics and even some of the same units its still CoH2.

40$ isn't that much when it comes to games these days. Seriously have you seen the prices?
(Damn I sound like my father complaining about the price of beer.)

Personally Im not intrested at all so probably won't preorder, but it's beacuse I know I wont play it.

I belong to the multiplayer portion of the games followers. Have friends who never play multi but play a ton of skirmishes and ToW things, those guys have already pre-orderd.

Okay, that's actually a lot like I expected it to be. Stupid NDAs... But yeah, you also got some News about Support/updates from CoH 1?

Yes, they ACTUALLY read the forums. Both of them. When I say they I don't mean just the select staff whom post. The large majority of the staff lurk. It would be safe to assume that they know and are working on a lot of our pain points. I mean this in the grand sense of the title and not just balancing.

Yes, they do that. Not all of them read everything, but at least the opening post and a few after can be a good read for a lot of threads. This was said rather often though

Yes, they also have a QA department and read/collect/act on bug splats.

Not so sure about this. Which of Relics staff are in the QA? They do react on bug splats though, that's true.

Yes, the NDA is real and it sucks. Unfortunately, it would appear that Relic is rather risk adverse and the legal barriers are preventing staff from communicating with us in a more open fashion. Cynthia eluded to this during the stream. It is a tough spot to be in.

Ya NDA sucks. While I would definitely prefer a more open approach, I can understand their reasons. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it though. The public beta is a great step towards a more open process and should also help a lot with QA

The staff I got to meet are passionate and personally invested in the titles success. Some of the posts we make here affect them in real life. Take this into account in the future. I'm guilty of some less than flattering posts about Relic but I try to be constructive in my criticism.

This is definitely true. Especially the lower ranked staff is usually quite passionate and the ones I've met have always been great guys. My quarrel with Relic was in most cases with the upper tiers. The problem is it's usually taken out at the lower tiers, as they are somewhat the public face. If balance is not good Peter/Brad gets blamed. If maps are flawed Eagleheart and so on. People perceive them as failing, as they see them as responsible for it. That those people cannot work on issues because they have to work on other projects due to bad prioritisation by upper tiers is ignored.

From what I observed, and I was not allowed entry into some places, Relic is working on enough stuff and things that CoH2 will be actively supported for a long time. Think years, not months.

Yes, but I don't think that's a good approach. They often are too heavily invested into the long term. For example the state after WFA release. The game was (and to this day is) having tons of bugs and general gameplay problems. Those didn't get tackled for months, as Ardennes Assault and new features (which from a long term view are more important) got prioritized over polishing what there already is. I think they need to find a better balance between long term investments (i.e. adding new features) and short term investments (polishing / bugfixing).
Right now to me they seem just too focused on getting the game in a good state in a years scope or whatever, that they ignore urgent issues. This causes people in the community to be annoyed by how slowly they react to issues. As said prior, this dissatisfaction is then often taken out on the back of the lower tier staff, making those people feel bad. If the community is having a bad opinion of Relic and the lower staffers getting annoyed by the community, then this is not a healthy way to proceed.

Cynthia, the new Relic Community Manager does play the game. She also understands a lot of the communities pain points and is making things happen.

Can't say much to this point

I would ask the community to support Relic. Consider pre-ordering AA as a sign of that support.

Meh, I wouldn't fall for sweet words so fast. I'd rather have them show improvements first. Open beta and the recent patch log is something good, but the fact it took almost half a year for some of those issues to get addressed is still problematic.


In general, I have to say I greatly appreciate a lot of people at Relic:
Peter Qumsieh - He's pretty much the symbol of a lot of rage and balance complaints, but he did a lot of great stuff for this game.
Eagleheart21 - He's one of the most laid back and enjoyable persons I've ever met. He takes feedback really serious and quickly acts on problems, but he seems to be always short on time
BreakingBrad - He's probably the funniest guy to hang around with. He's one of the few employees at Relic that I played, chatted and talked with a lot even in his off time. He got heavily invested in this game, as could be seen on the countless streams with Dusty / Lemon etc. Miss ya
Jason Lee - Awesome fellow. Not only a good perception of the issues and good at what he's doing, but also up for some nice deeds. I still cherish the moment you threw your stuffed panda at Braden during his "RektTrain" streams
Stefan Haines - Awww yiiiss. One of the most creative designers and a really nice fellow. While I think some of his creations are a bit over the top crazy, I really enjoy that he basically constantly tries to create refreshing new stuff.
Mitch Lagran - Only me this guy once, but a person that knows how to chug beer and tell interesting stories can't be bad, right?
Greg Wilson - Quite serious person, but also really professional. I can't say too much about him though, yet I greatly respect him.
Quinn Duffy - similar to Mitch I only met him once, but he seemed quite knowledgeable and open for ideas.
Jeffrey 'Noun' Simpson - He always seemed busy, not entirely sure with what, but he was enjoyable as well

I hope I didn't forget anyone, if so, I am sorry. It's early morning and I haven't even gotten a single coffee yet.

I think it's fairly impressive with all the work Relic managed to achieve in the patch while still building Ardennes Assault and keep in mind Relic is not a huge studio.

A lot of people do forget that there are actual people behind the game. I always hope that when Peter, Eagleheart, Cynthia, etc. get shit (non-constructive criticism) from certain people they are able to shrug it off, but I know how hard that is. All the Relic people I've met have been awesome.

Also thank you for enjoying my name Cynthia!