State of Balance - August - ID

Oh yea, for every 6.8 games soviets win and 6.6 games USF wins, poor wehrmacht wins "only" 6.5 games and OKW wins "only" 6.6 games.

The disbalance! Much buffs needed!

Predicatable,boring faction...with 3/4th of its unit roster redundant.No top players 'opinion' can change this fact.

You've just described soviets.

...
The Maxim needs increased setup time and a tad less suppression. Pushing a skilled maxim spammer off the map is just too darn difficult.

+1 dat : especially in Buildings against OKW - Maxims are really too good.

Are you better then him?
Can you micro as good?
Do you have as many games with all factions?
Do you have a deep understanding of units and armies functions and capabilities?
Do you know stats?
Can you provide actual gameplay replays that would back you in any way?

Yes, in this case being great player does make the final argument.
People like to listen to people who have a clue and can prove it. Cruzz certainly can with his rank with ALL armies. What is your best for comparison?(rethorical question)


Elaborate please, why some random one faction only player of unknown but presumed low ladder rank wouldn't hold on to an opinion of a player that plays equally all factions on very top level and as pretty much only player here can be called truly objective.

Even I don't always agree with better/top players, but I'm not completely immune to facts backed up by gameplay they provide to convince me to their case.

@dasheepeh
The part in bracket was specifically for players like you.
Even on official forums you have german fanboys asking if IS-2 isn't bugged for how bad its AI is recently.

For players "like me"? Why? Because i think that IS2 is pretty good vs infantry? You know, sometimes i dont know if we are playing the same game. In case of an bias accusation, i have my playercard to prove anyone wrong here. Where's yours? Do you feel okay reacting to posts that are disagreeing with your opinion with hostility? This game isnt played on paper. Its played ingame. Dont act like you are a big pro or anything. I may consider taking your posts seriously when you will learn to respect other people and play the game. Telling everyone to l2p is not the right way to go.

You know, i actually dont like to write something like this. I dont like to argue about such non sense. But enough is enough man.

Oh yea, for every 6.8 games soviets win and 6.6 games USF wins, poor wehrmacht wins "only" 6.5 games and OKW wins "only" 6.6 games.

The disbalance! Much buffs needed!


You've just described soviets.

In high level differences are very small due to player skill,this difference increases as u go on to average players.
And ur purposedly distorting the data.soviets .678,americans .659 and ostheer .652 in 1vs 1.
In 2 vs 2.OKW .649 ,soviets .615 and ostheer .584.


Second part-
Nope i haven't, soviets have many ways they can go-early game snipers,maxim,shocks,guards,ppsh cons occasionally.Fast t-34/76 .Lategame they can go any of the armor options -t-34/85s,isu,is-2,kv-1s with b4,m4 sherman spam,even su-85 vs tigers in team games.
We can only really do grenadiers and tiger.Elefant-dead,panther-dead.Maybe pz 4s to get owned by call-ins .

If the game is balanced for equally skilled high level player, then the game is balanced.

If you have disbalance on lower ranks, its because of skill difference, therefore L2P issue, not balance issue.

Its that simple.

Ostheer is nowhere in the top 2 of either 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2,it is also the least played faction.
And it has 1 infantry and 1 tank unit....its that simple.
Simple thing..if nothing is done after 5 months of this meta..lets have another 6 months of this 1 infantry,1 tank..then just delete the faction.Enjoy the USF,soviets and OKW slug it out plz.I mean its not like the faction was just about barely mentioned in the past like..half a dozen patches...

If the game is balanced for equally skilled high level player, then the game is balanced.

If you have disbalance on lower ranks, its because of skill difference, therefore L2P issue, not balance issue.

Its that simple.




Also you have conveniently forgot about USF, but lets go with that:

Sov: 6.2 games out of 10 won.

USF: 5.9

Ost: 5.9

OKW: 6.5

What you have proven here?
That OKW needs to be nerfed as its clearly on the high edge here.
And the difference is still less then one game won per every 10 games played.
All of that "oh so uncounterable soviet units" and still Soviets win almost as much games as ostheer while loosing more then OKW.


Was that your aim or you're still learning to read % based tables?

First is this a average of all the figures?Coz u urself said higher than 2 vs 2 don't matter for balance as they can't be balanced..backtracking?
I don't care about OKW as my arguments are concerned with ostheer.Do what u want with them.And do u deny that wehr are nowhere to be seen in top 2.Also least played faction....now answer me directly why does this faction have 1 infantry unit and 1 useable late game tank?Simple question...and how long are we expected to put up with this?
Geramn T4 and panzergrenadiers need to be buffed ,and u can't give any reasons why they shouldn't...come straight to point..why are u opposing german t4 and pz gren buff idea knowing they are completely extinct units?
Only one answer-complete soviet bias.You want to on purpose keep wehr a 1 infantry,1 tank crippled faction.

I dunno, people say tigers are a must for ostheer, but i prefer first getting an ostheer command tank at 8CPs (For some reason whenever i play vs USF CPs go up really fast), and since most USF players will either get a M15 or a Stuart or a Greyhound means that the PIV command tank will have free reign over USF for a while. After that i follow with PIVs.

Grens might be inferior to rifles at 1v1, but once they get LMG, they become very cost effective. MG42 vs USF is very good too.

IS-2 armor doesn't kill.
Tigers 88mm does both vehicles and infantry alike.
IS-2 is effective only against vehicles currently(inb4 spasms of denial-play with it and see how awesome AI it currently have without DSHK upgrade).

I will allow Cruzzi to replay for other stuff as I personally am tired of reasoning with brick walls who always know better even if reality slaps something entirely different right into their faces.

Is this some kind of joke?

IS2 completely rapes infantry, i've had full and almost full squads wiped by it many times. It is better than tiger every way except reload and blitz.

First is this a average of all the figures?

No. First post for 1v1, 2nd for 2v2(as you have asked for 2v2 by using it first).

Coz u urself said higher than 2 vs 2 don't matter for balance as they can't be balanced..backtracking?

You have felt the need to bring up 2v2.
I have provided best rounded data to bring the picture for people who have hard time with numbers so its impossible to interpret the numbers wrong.
I have rounded 2v2 numbers only because you have used that as argument, so you are arguing yourself here.
2v2 % will be reference point in the following part of my post.

I don't care about OKW as my arguments are concerned with ostheer.Do what u want with them.And do u deny that wehr are nowhere to be seen in top 2.Also least played faction....now answer me directly why does this faction have 1 infantry unit and 1 useable late game tank?Simple question...and how long are we expected to put up with this?

First of all, its % of wins for all factions, not a ladder in itself, doesn't matter what faction is first and what is last as long as they are all relatively close to each other.
In case of 3 factions the difference is 3%, which means almost perfect balance.
In case of 4th, OKW, the difference is twice as big, indicating for a minor balance issue with them being tad too strong somewhere.

Secondly, which faction is played most and which faction is played least have absolutely nothing to do with anything, the data is for top 200 of all 4 factions and as you and others like to chant in the que proportions threads, which faction is being played most or least have nothing to do with balance, but preference. In DoW2 nids were strongest and yet least played.

Thirdly, as it was pointed to you multiple times in a plethora of threads-its all about how you use the unit.
Best players have no problems with it, bad players complain. I'd go with balance opinions of players better then me in this case and say they perform fine, which leads us to the second part-how long will you have to put up with that? Until you learn to properly use them.

Geramn T4 and panzergrenadiers need to be buffed ,and u can't give any reasons why they shouldn't...come straight to point..why are u opposing german t4 and pz gren buff idea knowing they are completely extinct units?
Only one answer-complete soviet bias.You want to on purpose keep wehr a 1 infantry,1 tank crippled faction.

Pgrens perform fine.
T4 units perform fine.
Getting to T4 is the part that is not fine.
As opposed to you, I actually play all 4 factions, I don't give a shit about bias, I have a prefference of a playstyle, but since I play all of them I want equal chances with all of them.

Play more then ost, learn other factions, play AGAINST ost and you'll suddenly find out that the grass is not greener on the other side and you don't have it half as bad as you make it seem.

The video makes some good points, but other stuff is not so good. He doesnt seem to play very much allied...

why would you want to take away the maxims set up time? the obw have the MG clown car with very fast set up time, and has much better survivability (until tanks).

over all. all factions need less options locked away in to doctrines and more options available as the core faction.

I have just had to work my way through 12 consecutive complaints on this thread by just one poster against one poster complained of. All but one of the reports were unsustainable. This is intolerable.

I am simply reminding you all, that if you press the Report button that your name comes with the complaint and is noted. If you do so gratuitously, without judgement, it is a low level form of cyber bullying - and a huge irritant - to be dealt with accordingly.

No. First post for 1v1, 2nd for 2v2(as you have asked for 2v2 by using it first).


First of all, its % of wins for all factions, not a ladder in itself, doesn't matter what faction is first and what is last as long as they are all relatively close to each other.
In case of 3 factions the difference is 3%, which means almost perfect balance.
In case of 4th, OKW, the difference is twice as big, indicating for a minor balance issue with them being tad too strong somewhere.

Secondly, which faction is played most and which faction is played least have absolutely nothing to do with anything, the data is for top 200 of all 4 factions and as you and others like to chant in the que proportions threads, which faction is being played most or least have nothing to do with balance, but preference. In DoW2 nids were strongest and yet least played.

Thirdly, as it was pointed to you multiple times in a plethora of threads-its all about how you use the unit.
Best players have no problems with it, bad players complain. I'd go with balance opinions of players better then me in this case and say they perform fine, which leads us to the second part-how long will you have to put up with that? Until you learn to properly use them.


Pgrens perform fine.
T4 units perform fine.
Getting to T4 is the part that is not fine.
As opposed to you, I actually play all 4 factions, I don't give a shit about bias, I have a prefference of a playstyle, but since I play all of them I want equal chances with all of them.

Play more then ost, learn other factions, play AGAINST ost and you'll suddenly find out that the grass is not greener on the other side and you don't have it half as bad as you make it seem.

Still the difference shows no ostheer in top 2 and if it doesn't matter,then why did YOU bring it up in the first place.You failed and now trying to make ur own find irrelevant.
I can use wehrmacht units at least very well,after a 1000 games i don't need u to tell me 'learn to properly' use them.In fact this thread has nothing to do with use of units..rather buffs to dead units.

Then why is it never used..even by ur pros.Plz i would like cruzz to use pzgrens as his infantry to teach us in some competitive games.Plz pros use couple of pzgrens in some of these tourney matches.
Then why is panther never used?When was the last time t4 was used competitevely,lol.
You have become so blind..that ignorance has become bliss.
I have also played as soviets over 100 games and some as americans as well.It is OKW that i have not played as.If u actually played ostheer regularly u could NEVER EVER say german T4 and pzgrens are fine.Ur bias has reached extreme proportions.

And yet another three have come in from the same poster as I posted. Final warning.

Back to topic

I dunno, people say tigers are a must for ostheer, but i prefer first getting an ostheer command tank at 8CPs (For some reason whenever i play vs USF CPs go up really fast), and since most USF players will either get a M15 or a Stuart or a Greyhound means that the PIV command tank will have free reign over USF for a while. After that i follow with PIVs.

Grens might be inferior to rifles at 1v1, but once they get LMG, they become very cost effective. MG42 vs USF is very good too.

Risky proposition...at 9CP E8 might hit the field, and even if it does not outright chase down your Command PIV (which is totally defenceless against it), you will be down one fuel intensive unit against the most spammable and most cost-effective tank in the game. Its not like the regular PIV fares much better tho.
Katitof: You might play all factions (as do I) but you play very little overall, and that might be the reason why your observations about the state of the meta/balance frankly appear so outlandish sometimes...ie. T4 units performing fine? Sic!

I have just had to work my way through 12 consecutive complaints on this thread by just one poster against one poster complained of. All but one of the reports were unsustainable. This is intolerable.

I am simply reminding you all, that if you press the Report button that your name comes with the complaint and is noted. If you do so gratuitously, without judgement, it is a low level form of cyber bullying - and a huge irritant - to be dealt with accordingly.

Let me guess,katitof against me?I have never complained about anyone ever.

Katitof: You might play all factions (as do I) but you play very little overall, and that might be the reason why your observations about the state of the meta/balance frankly appear so outlandish sometimes...ie. T4 units performing fine? Sic!

Well, got to admit that Wehr panther could have its stats(or rather should) mirrored to OKW panther, but other two perform fine.
I do like to do some hipster stuff from time to time and believe me, Brummbar lacks nothing(yes, its a tough decision to go for it, but try it sometimes, its really good unit, follow it with 2 PaKs and maybe a shreck PGs and it'll shine) and pwerfer isn't much different from katiusha.

@up
More like death's bong against me.
Butthurt is a power that can't be underestimated and he mastered that power.

i would really enjoy reading katitofs version of the state of balance. seems like it would consist of two words: "its fine"

this isnt even sarcasm though. i would genuinely like to read that thread.

Let me guess,katitof against me?I have never complained about anyone ever.

They were all against you, yes. It was not Katitof.

Rest assured,I shall be making a report.

Returning to the topic, I find IS2 AI output too unreliable. Most of the time it doesn't hit anything, but when it does usually it's a squad wipe or everyone except a single model dead.

Tiger seems much more consistent as an AI tank.