Cruzz's Fantasy Patch Thread 2: WTFWFA Edition

Calm down Warthrone. If you read the whole list and calm down, you'll see plenty in there for Ost.

I don't agree with all of these, but for the most part they're pretty good. One thing though, you forgot the Easy Eight! I'd suggest a simple cost increase from 380 Manpower, 135 Fuel to 400 Manpower, 150 Fuel.

Reason: The M4A3E8 is priced only 10 Fuel higher than the Ostheer Panzer IV and Soviet M4C, but is vastly superior to both.

Oh god. Please. Stop.

Your 'points' sucked. Please refer to my last post.

Calm down...

My points are my opinion. My friend. I respect yours, but again your stats seem to suggest you play soviets alot more than OH or OKW

There we go. Only took 3 pages before the 'ur so biased' has to be thrown away.

The unfortunate part of this thread is that Relic will more than likely not act on it. Even with a large majority of the community agreeing with the OP. Relic just appears to be out of touch with the community.

only ? usually that's the first reply.

Guys, for once, keep a balance thread on topic and constructive please.

Calm down...

My points are my opinion. My friend. I respect yours, but again your stats seem to suggest you play soviets alot more than OH or OKW

You still seem to ignore what is written in that post. Basically you looked at 1 soviet change (not even a buff vs good players), looked at 1 axis nerf (overperforming mg34) and declared Cruzz to be biased. Look at my post, look at Cruzz his post. Wehrmacht is getting incredibly buffed in his post and you ignore all of it.

Edit: Sorry Von Kluge, I had to just to Cruzz his defence. Cruzz is wisdom, Cruzz is life.

So let me get this straight. You wait an extra 4-5 seconds for a Maxim spam that from atm can at least be flanked to a tiny degree (If at all) to a point where it cannot be flanked at all because it can suppress multiple squads. This is already being abused and has broken the game. Oh yes and because doing this will not do any extra damange to german squads and force them to lose units and hence MP flow. Nice logic. Maxims need to be nerfed in its current state. Not buffed as this biased post shows.

I'm not sure you're even reading what I posted.

Lets try this again.

AoE Suppression. It is something that all HMGs except for the Maxim has. When firing on one squad nearby squads will be suppressed.

Okay. So it only works on units on the Maxim's small arc of fire. If they're spread out enough the buff wouldn't even work on those units! It is a bonus that nerfs blobbing. That's all it does.

How do you flank HMGs? You flank them by attacking them with multiple squads from multiple direcitons. You flank by keeping your units far away from each other so they can attack from different angles. If you're spread out then you're not in a blob. If you're not in a blob then the AoE suppression doesn't matter.

Maybe that clarifies it.

Making the Maxim more expensive does actually make it easier to flank. There are less units to support it! There are less Maxims in Maxim spam. The reinforcement cost goes up for Soviets. AoE suppression doesn't make the Maxim more lethal. So no the "MP damage to the germans" would not go up.

You seem pretty keen on attacking other's bias based on their playercard but you didn't even look at Cruzz's playercard. I wonder what bias your playercard would reveal?

That being said I dislike the idea of using playercards to fuel some sort of inquisition of "who can actually talk" or not. Balance is different at different levels of the game. Everyone deserves a voice.

I'm not sure you're even reading what I posted.

Lets try this again.

AoE Suppression. It is something that all HMGs except for the Maxim has. When firing on one squad nearby squads will be suppressed.

Okay. So it only works on units on the Maxim's small arc of fire. If they're spread out enough the buff wouldn't even work on those units! It is a bonus that nerfs blobbing. That's all it does.

How do you flank HMGs? You flank them by attacking them with multiple squads from multiple direcitons. You flank by keeping your units far away from each other so they can attack from different angles. If you're spread out then you're not in a blob. If you're not in a blob then the AoE suppression doesn't matter.

Maybe that clarifies it.

Making the Maxim more expensive does actually make it easier to flank. There are less units to support it! There are less Maxims in Maxim spam. The reinforcement cost goes up for Soviets. AoE suppression doesn't make the Maxim more lethal. So no the "MP damage to the germans" would not go up.

You seem pretty keen on attacking other's bias based on their playercard but you didn't even look at Cruzz's playercard. I wonder what bias your playercard would reveal?

That being said I dislike the idea of using playercards to fuel some sort of inquisition of "who can actually talk" or not. Balance is different at different levels of the game. Everyone deserves a voice.

40mp is not enough to make any remote difference in spam-ability. The difference like i said. Is an extra 4 second wait per unit.

In return you can greater AOE supression which is completely ridiculous. You tell it so simply. "Spread your units" out and attack. That's the whole idea of maxim spam, Supporting them with other maxims so there is no room to flank and using the map constraints to exploit this further. This is where maxim already exels to an already screwed degree and you want to limit this further.

Add to the fact that the 6 man squad gives it ridicuous durability. Con ability to merge and has more damage than MG42. I think it need to be nerfed not buffed.

This is already being exploited on several maps and has basially killed the game from a strategic and micro sense.

I dont agree with anything Cruz has said. IMO he is incredibly biased towards allies. Perhpas im the same for OH and OKW.

"Flak HT 3 second setup time is just silly, and reducing the setup time further with vet helps it maintain more usefulness as the game progresses"

So his proposed fix is to decrease back to 2 seconds which was where it was one patch ago yet no changes to US AA which can fire on the move with a 50 cal and can insanme damage.

"Fusiliers are way too spammable right now. To be honest their weapon performance should probably be looked at, but I'm taking the easy way out and just increasing cost to better match their performance. Same atnade tracking problem as with riflemen."

So PFs are too spammable at CP2 yet rifleman are not? Right. Rifleman are currently dominating the infantry game.

"Jaeger spam is quite op as well to be honest, they have absolutely insane damage output for a relatively cheap squad that can pop out of buildings. Falls atleast are notably more expensive and yet slightly weaker in short range with no sprint."

You want to make these units further useless they are already weak as piss now and are rarely used.

"Pumas are insanely durable for a light vehicle and have super AT stats as well, something about them has to go and I think removing the vet0 smoke is the most reasonable choice"

Yes lets decrease its ability to survive more that it is already. It already struggles to kill a US AA HT and is useless vs Infantry

"MG34 overperforms by a large margin, it's a super mg42 in a faction that gives better support to an MG than Ostheer for less manpower than an MG42. Other option is mostly reverting the large stat buff it got a while ago, I think it's better to have a more expensive stronger HMG than a weak spammable one."

Yet maxim does not. Right....

OKW already is completely disadvnataged vs soviets and now he wants to make key changes to reduce its effectiveness even more.

SOviets:

"Fine, let's make maxims less spammable. But actually let them deal with blobs like axis and USF HMGs."

So make them less spammable by inreasing the already ridiculous effectivness of them AOE supression. Max spam is already unflankable as it is. LOL.

Penals: the movement change should've been in the game months ago. Slight buff to accuracy to increase damage output while still.

Fine.

Dshk: same thing as with maxim plus incremental accuracy for more damage against massive blobs

Um No.

Sniper: sprint has been way too cheap since forever

Sprint is not the problem with sovs snipers. They are to durable and they need a range decrease.

SU-76: Because I can suggest this.

Because sovs need more AOE units to be more deadly right?

Katyusha: reverting a part of the last nerf to bring effectiveness more in line with cost

As above.

T70: Making unit slightly more attractive compared to pure T34 spam. It's still not a bad unit people.

Yep no suprise you want to give sovs more options to dominate OKW.

ISU152: You can currently avoid the "can't fire on move" just by hitting stop button and having the thing instafire. Let's make it a bit clumsier than that.

Not the problem. ISU should not be given its massive AOE damage to begin with and should not realy be effective at AT as it is.

T34/85: Slight nerf to anti-infantry capabilities

Agree.

Zis Camo: because the current camo move speed is ridiculous

Agree

Conscripts: scaling! Fairly minor damage buffs for muni but they should help without giving con spam insane boosts.

NO.Area already terrible spammed and have oorah to negate effectiveness vs German long range infantry.

Combined arms: because nobody uses this and I'd like to see more unit variety and combinations in the game, in this case guards+kv1

No comment.

Windustry: this doctrine hasn't changed even after every single soviet vehicle has been increased in manpower cost.

Right. And yet they are still far too effective for their costs. T-34 85 same price as a p4 yet is far superior as an example.

Defensive: because those tank traps are useless right now, might as well give them out to everyone as OKW and USF have them anyway, and make the defensive doctrine ones better.

Right give sovs more amor options while ding nothing to improve OKW panther, Tiger nerfed and P4 lack of ability to penetrate IS2.

I like it

Back on topic, someone needs to email this to relic. I would totally play this patch.

+100 Cruzz

Very good, sensible ideas. Hope Relic will add them to the game ASAP.

Cruzz should be relics new ballance designer

I'm not sure you're even reading what I posted.

Lets try this again.

AoE Suppression. It is something that all HMGs except for the Maxim has. When firing on one squad nearby squads will be suppressed.

Okay. So it only works on units on the Maxim's small arc of fire. If they're spread out enough the buff wouldn't even work on those units! It is a bonus that nerfs blobbing. That's all it does.

How do you flank HMGs? You flank them by attacking them with multiple squads from multiple direcitons. You flank by keeping your units far away from each other so they can attack from different angles. If you're spread out then you're not in a blob. If you're not in a blob then the AoE suppression doesn't matter.

Maybe that clarifies it.

Making the Maxim more expensive does actually make it easier to flank. There are less units to support it! There are less Maxims in Maxim spam. The reinforcement cost goes up for Soviets. AoE suppression doesn't make the Maxim more lethal. So no the "MP damage to the germans" would not go up.

You seem pretty keen on attacking other's bias based on their playercard but you didn't even look at Cruzz's playercard. I wonder what bias your playercard would reveal?

That being said I dislike the idea of using playercards to fuel some sort of inquisition of "who can actually talk" or not. Balance is different at different levels of the game. Everyone deserves a voice.

I agree, but at some point we also have to recognize not all feedback is equal. A good player like Cruzz who plays all factions and makes insightful posts is just way more valuable to the community than a biased fanboy like Warthorne who bristles with rage at the very idea that Soviets might get anything but nerfed to the ground, with seemingly very little considerations for the meta. Plus, he's the one who attacked the playercard of someone whose own card is pretty much beyond reproach. It's just massive hypocrisy is all.

Not that I think Cruzz is infallible, I have issues with his list as I stated. But it's a cut above the vast majority of the feedback in the balance section, let's just put it that way.

I'm all for a more expensive Maxim that punishes blobbing better myself. But I'm not still not quite sure if its not a bit too resilient. Then again, I barely even see Maximspam anymore, and when I do it's almost always by unskilled players that I almost always crush underfoot. And if I can manage to crush them, they are pretty bad indeed .

40mp is not enough to make any remote difference in spam-ability. The difference like i said. Is an extra 4 second wait per unit. So I'm hardly going to suggest anything drastic. And you're seriously underestimating how much of a difference 40MP will make in the early game, which I assume is when you are having issues with maxim spam in the first place.

See, I don't actually even consider maxims a problem, honestly barely anybody at the top end of the ladder does it in 1vs1 because it just isn't a strong strat. I'm not gonna suggest any drastic change when I don't think there is anything particularly wrong in the first place.

So his proposed fix is to decrease back to 2 seconds which was where it was one patch ago yet no changes to US AA which can fire on the move with a 50 cal and can insanme damage.

Yes, I don't believe it needs to be a carbon copy of the USF AA HT. I also consider the USF HT annoying as hell to use due to the gun placement and all the pathing issues it brings, so I think it should be a bit stronger for cost than other similarly priced vehicles.

Right now all I'd do the unit really is swap the suppression from the MGs to the main gun so it can be chased down easier. Which I guess I'll add to the original post.

So PFs are too spammable at CP2 yet rifleman are not? Right. Rifleman are currently dominating the infantry game.

Well, in case you haven't noticed, OKW isn't USF. Also G43 Fusiliers completely destroy non-two weapon upgraded riflemen. While getting their nades for free unlike riflemen, and getting their weapon upgrades cheaper than riflemen, and having better survivability than riflemen and much better veterancy than riflemen. And not being the only option for OKW, unlike Riflemen are for USF.

You want to make these units further useless they are already weak as piss now and are rarely used.

Yes, I don't care how often it is used if I view it as problematic. For a 340MP, no munitions, spawn from house squad jaeger damage output at short range (especially with the attached sprint) is absolutely insane, and it doesn't help the doctrine is in general extremely good at cheesing USF due to the ostwind call-in and base kill artillery.

Yes lets decrease its ability to survive more that it is already. It already struggles to kill a US AA HT and is useless vs Infantry

Puma useless against infantry, nice joke. As for the USF HT, don't rush your pumas straight at a setup one and maybe you'll have a better time.

OKW already is completely disadvnataged vs soviets and now he wants to make key changes to reduce its effectiveness even more.

Apart from multiple snipers to guard spam to call-ins I don't consider OKW weaker than Ostheer to any kind of soviet play to be honest.

So make them less spammable by inreasing the already ridiculous effectivness of them AOE supression. Max spam is already unflankable as it is. LOL.

I'm humoring all the people whining about maxims by giving it an effectiveness nerf in exchange for buffing a feature of it I think it is essential to an HMG and which all of the Maxim whine crowd swear wouldn't matter because they're so not blobbing against them.

Dshk: Um No.

Glad to hear you think that the worst HMG in the game that also happens to be doctrinal doesn't need any kind of love

Sprint is not the problem with sovs snipers. They are to durable and they need a range decrease.

Yes it is, it's a get out of jail for free card whenever it's not on cooldown, and no they aren't particularly durable compared to average axis ranged dps. Sorry. Honestly I'd rate the axis sniper durability against small arms as better if he had my 60hp.

SU-76: Because sovs need more AOE units to be more deadly right?

Katyusha: As above.

Yes

T70: Yep no suprise you want to give sovs more options to dominate OKW.

Yes, I do like giving people more options.

Not the problem. ISU should not be given its massive AOE damage to begin with and should not realy be effective at AT as it is.

So in essence you are saying the ISU should just sit there and look pretty while doing nothing?

Conscripts: NO.Area already terrible spammed and have oorah to negate effectiveness vs German long range infantry.

You seem to be primarily an OKW player based on your complaints. I recommend you learn to play the game if you find conscript spam of all things an issue as OKW, because OKW does not give a damn about the blobs, unlike Ostheer. As for Ostheer...well, I did not exactly make those upgrades OP in terms of increase damage, but obviously would have to see what happens ingame.

Windustry: Right. And yet they are still far too effective for their costs. T-34 85 same price as a p4 yet is far superior as an example.

Cool opinion that has nothing to do with windustry

Defensive: Right give sovs more amor options while ding nothing to improve OKW panther, Tiger nerfed and P4 lack of ability to penetrate IS2.

Cool, what does that have to do with defensive community doctrine tank traps? Which has none of those scary call-in tanks you so love to complain about.

I don't agree with all of these, but for the most part they're pretty good. One thing though, you forgot the Easy Eight! I'd suggest a simple cost increase from 380 Manpower, 135 Fuel to 400 Manpower, 150 Fuel.

Reason: The M4A3E8 is priced only 10 Fuel higher than the Ostheer Panzer IV and Soviet M4C, but is vastly superior to both.

The change to tech requirements would probably require cost adjustments on most vehicles afterwards, I didn't bother thinking about them because it's a bit hard to say how the meta would change. EZ8 cost definitely wouldn't be going down if I were to change it, that's for sure.