miragefla's Wehrmacht/Ostheer Balance Ideas and Suggestions

And all this time I had thought you were complaining about maxims in a teamgames because they sure as hell are not problematic in 1vs1.

Yeah, those SSSS builds from coh1 sure weren't support weapons in any shape or form. Or how about mg42 at coh2 release?

yes and the ssss builds in coh 1 is the reason why snipers are not nearly as potent as they are in coh 2. i think people are severely over blowing the worth of the mg42 back then. it could not function by spamming. flamethrowers where much more powerful and as such m3 + flame engie was even more powerful. you could put snipers in m3 and the mg42 only had 3 men back then. and of course maxim spam was a problem back then as well as the maxim simply could be rammed into a mg42 and get on top because their hp differences. only later relic fixed that. however they took the best anti maxim unit: the flame ht from tier 2 and since then the maxim became a problem for the ost again.

Sorry, but no. MG42 at the start of the game was game braking. Especially in 2v2 and beyond.

Sorry, but no. MG42 at the start of the game was game braking. Especially in 2v2 and beyond.

in what way?

in what way?

Ohh, I don't know, because it was a weapon team that could RELIABLY stop 3 conscripts approaching at different angles within the cone, pin them all and kill them with tiny micro? Two of them meant there was nothing to stop that outside of snipers or tanks.

I presume you also don't remember famous 4-6 MG spams that also could deal with M3s that arrived incredibly late, because T1 was going up for 3 mins for sovs.

If you even need to ask why then you're either a late comer or way beyond comprehensible level of bias.

Ohh, I don't know, because it was a weapon team that could RELIABLY stop 3 conscripts approaching at different angles within the cone, pin them all and kill them with tiny micro? Two of them meant there was nothing to stop that outside of snipers or tanks.

I presume you also don't remember famous 4-6 MG spams that also could deal with M3s that arrived incredibly late, because T1 was going up for 3 mins for sovs.

If you even need to ask why then you're either a late comer or way beyond comprehensible level of bias.

wat.

MG42 never, in any iteration, could stop 3 conscripts from different approaches.
Especially not if they hit Oorah. The delay in switching targets, alone, has always been a hardcap on that.

I don't even know what I'm reading here, its so wrong on so many levels.

in what way?

You gave it a suppression bulletin and it would instantly suppress then pin on the first burst and there were no received accuracy penalties on weapon crews meaning conscripts had trouble de-crewing. It also had a quick, near instant traverse speed from the slow one we have now.

We should probably get away from the Maxim, however, this is about Ostheer units/systems that need changes due to being less than ideal options or needs fixing that goes to all other factions as well(MG remanning, packing-up, mortar needing to retreat instantly, stationary field pieces needing more survivability against off-maps).

And to Courier, I do agree Ost can be strong and sweeping changes should be avoided, but some units like PGs likely need to go back to the state where they had .75 received accuracy instead. It won't really help them survive armour, but at least they'd be active on the field long enough to do their sustained damage. I don't think they were over-performing prior to that change though I could be wrong. They still died quickly if they got too close to the enemy.

wat.

MG42 never, in any iteration, could stop 3 conscripts from different approaches.
Especially not if they hit Oorah. The delay in switching targets, alone, has always been a hardcap on that.

I don't even know what I'm reading here, its so wrong on so many levels.

Obviously you don't if you haven't played the game in the first 6 weeks.

Obviously you don't if you haven't played the game in the first 6 weeks.

I did. And also for months before launch.

No such thing ever existed or happened as you describe it.

I understand your love of hyperbole and lax attitude towards facts unless they are in your favor, but you overstepped on this one.

OK. Let's cool it please.

There are posts here, from my own recollection, containing some incorrectly recalled facts.

As for the 5 Snipers stuff in vCoH - iirc, that started as a spoof on Inverse's casts,which Barton then proceeded to translate reasonably well into game play.

Back to balance.....without too much sword fighting, please?

OK. Let's cool it please.

Back to balance.....without too much sword fighting, please?

Well said, sir.
And 'tis a good thread deserving of better.

Back to balance.....without too much sword fighting, please?

Back to balance, no penals or shocks.

Understood!

HMGs have been in bad state of balance all the time. At launch maxim was terribly OP, as you could deploy one in front of a MG42 and kill it whitout problem.

Then MG42 overperformed too. If you stacked bulletins, they could instapin any number of squads inside their line of sight. And even if flanked, conscript's mosins didn't do enough damage to decrew one before it retreated.

And one HMG garrisoning a building was virtually invulnerable to small arms damage.

Now I think both are well balanced. Maxim is not OP at all, the same way snipers aren't. They don't need any nerf.
It's just that the current meta encourages spamming them because the infantry, which should be the backbone of the soviet army, is just underperforming against axis infantry.

Sorry but disagree on that. Soviet weapon teams are too resilient. Even Relic stated they are and they're looking into it hence we got this famous topic. I don't think anyone should argue this as obviously as the developer they have correct tools to measure it.

Maybe back in the day when they weren't performing in such a way it was fine for them to have this kind of durability but that's not the case anymore so in one way or another this should be taken care of.

Of course you defeat maxim spam 1 vs 1 ,and i can do so as well. it doesnt mean however that this unit is not over performing .. also you only list ost strat against it but no okw strats. thats because the okw has far less tools available then the ostheer. if a support unit is spammed over the regular infantry then something is wrong with it period.

I don't play OKW so I can't comment on them. They do, however, have an early light vehicle as well as infantry that does a ton of damage if they close the distance, and upon reaching vet 1 Volks are already pretty damn tough. They might have less tools, but I doubt they are helpless with a semi competent player. One thing I do see where they might have a hard time is early garrison clear, perhaps giving Sturms an incendiary grenade or somesuch would help. Or some smoke when a tier is built, that might help more.

And I'll just re-iterate this here; I very rarely see Maximspam, 2x Maxim 2x conscript is a much more common and much better, flexible BO. I wouldn't mind Soviet weapons team taking a bit of a durability nerf, but in the Maxim's case it needs to be comboed with greater scalability or AoE suppression within its cone. It just sucks at stopping blobs of any kind, especially late game.

wat.

MG42 never, in any iteration, could stop 3 conscripts from different approaches.
Especially not if they hit Oorah. The delay in switching targets, alone, has always been a hardcap on that.

I guess you are right, theres has never been such a thing as an unflankable MG42



They were really easily decrewed

I did. And also for months before launch.
No such thing ever existed or happened as you describe it.

I guess i got those videos from an alternative reality.

PD: it´s funny. On the same thread i got them from, they were also complaining about Sniper-Guards. I guess theres some things that never change

Sorry but disagree on that. Soviet weapon teams are too resilient. Even Relic stated they are and they're looking into it hence we got this famous topic. I don't think anyone should argue this as obviously as the developer they have correct tools to measure it.

Maybe back in the day when they weren't performing in such a way it was fine for them to have this kind of durability but that's not the case anymore so in one way or another this should be taken care of.

a flank usually gets them, when they have to keep running back to pick up the gun, same with the 120mm. the only thing it is resilient against are using mg42 to counter it, which is not a very good counter. also, german mortar has firing rates fast enough to offset the 6man advantage. incendiary barrage is still an effective counter to soviet hardpoints. lastly, gren blobs with lmg42s can cut it down faster than it deploys, in the rare case that the weapon team survives, a rifle nade will seal the deal.

it is spammed because of the relative worthlessness of conscripts/penals. conscripts, great as a utility unit, worthless the minute once lmg42 upgrades are in. granted, thats the fault of lmgs, not grenadiers.

Sorry but disagree on that. Soviet weapon teams are too resilient. Even Relic stated they are and they're looking into it hence we got this famous topic. I don't think anyone should argue this as obviously as the developer they have correct tools to measure it.

Maybe back in the day when they weren't performing in such a way it was fine for them to have this kind of durability but that's not the case anymore so in one way or another this should be taken care of.

+1

I guess you are right, theres has never been such a thing as an unflankable MG42

Massive micro fail in the first one from Sov. And that was the MG suppression bulletin period, which lasted for 1 patch. Without the bulletin at that point, Maxim actually was BETTER at suppressing than the MG42, and for like the preceeding 6months.

In the second, during that same period, imagine how impossible it was to decrew a 6man Maxim with Grens at close range. So yeah, again, not really.

Furthermore, there is no danger of either of these happening as a result of what is suggested in OP.
So no relevance really.

I guess i got those videos from an alternative reality.

PD: it´s funny. On the same thread i got them from, they were also complaining about Sniper-Guards. I guess theres some things that never change

The first one the mg42 was supported and in the second he was forced to retreat. lets use see what the maxim can do

That is a pretty old video Jaigen. I might be wrong but I believe the maxim setup and/or turn time has been increased since then.