The swapping T70 and SU76 suggestion thread

If anything, I would prefer changes to T70 and Su76 instead, rather than swapping them.
T70 went through a very problematic period. As a light tank, it was always wierdly aligned to begin with. SU76 is also a wierd unit to begin with.

Primarily, imo, SU76 barrage combination with ZiS barrage, at that stage, would be absolutely devastating to infantry/support, as a result of the sum total of indirect fire. But, in addition to that, both of these units also function as native AT, again, at a relatively early tier. This combined AT/AI potential frankly scares the hell out of me.

SU85/T70 combo I find less concerning, but I defer to the judgement of those here who see that also as extremely problematic. My rrsistance to that part of the change, is a different one. I think it squeezes T70 out of its already marginal optimum. T70 balance is hairline thin, as it is. I, for one, think T70 and SU85 combo is not something I would want, and which weakens Sovs T4 substantially, especially in favor of a Support/SU76 lineup.

I foresee very problematic unit combinations coming out of a T70/SU76 swap.

Swapping t70 and su76 doesnt make su76 come earlier like you seem to think since both buildings are the same price.

Su85/T70 combo isn't a issu at all since the su85 already have 2 ways to increase vision and you should generally have infantry or something in front of you su85 to spot

+IMO T70 is crap since the release of WFA(especially in team games), it comes too late and it doesnt have enough hp. 320 compared to 400 for the panzerII that cost 20 less gas while germans already have way better AT capacities... a puma can come into play around 5 minutes or more before a t70 can come in, even with soviet industry. For 70 gas, I think it s too fragile. I mean I already killed a t70 with 2 upgraded 222s. It basically gets 2 shotted by AT guns or medium tanks and 3 shotted by panzershreks. If your ennemy has one squad with shrek(s), you can't even think about engaging and you pretty much have 1 minute to use it before a panzerIV is on the field.

Also, maybe it s not the right place but wtf with faust ability that triggers even if the targetted unit is further then the circle area and never came in. Faust already has the most range of all AT nades... it makes it even harder to micro a t70 against wermacht and with the nerfs to the M3 acceleration and decceleration, M3 is just impossible to micro against wermacht. Before you wanted to stay at far-midrange to deal damage to grenadiers and now you have to stay at almost max range all the time and since grenadiers have decent dps at long range, most of the times, your scout car (with penal) doesn't last long enough to even kill a squad 1v1. FIX the faust!! plz it cost the same as other AT nades, has better penetration, longer range, but doesnt need teching, veterancy or a call-in unit (like OKW)... So at least make its range be as intended not further

What would happen if... the SU-76M remained where it is and exactly the same in every stat and cost... but it got 70 range for its direct fire?

What would happen if... the SU-76M remained where it is and exactly the same in every stat and cost... but it got 70 range for its direct fire?

SU76 spam in every game because of arty spam?

What would happen if... the SU-76M remained where it is and exactly the same in every stat and cost... but it got 70 range for its direct fire?

Absolutely nothing.

It would just be 70 range useless unit that can't fight anything and have to fight tigers.

What would happen if... the SU-76M remained where it is and exactly the same in every stat and cost... but it got 70 range for its direct fire?

Nothing. At a bear minimum it should be able to defend itself against a scout car, which is cannot do. Turning it into a baby Katyusha is not the way to go as T4 has the real Katyusha.

Honestly, I think it might be better if they just made it significantly cheaper. I'm talking like 50 fuel or less. Everytime I try to use these, I find myself getting the first one out, then it's usually dead before I can get a second. I feel this unit in groups of 3 or more would be great, but not broken. They could all mob larger armour and take it down and cover eachother with barrages to protect from AT and Shreks. One by itself is just so fragile it either dies fast or spends the whole time hiding in my experience.

Basically, I would make them a spammable multi-purpose unit for Tier 4, to compliment the specialist Anti-Tank SU85 and the anti-infantry Katyusha.

The issue with both units is how the Soviet tier buildings work, not with the individual units themselves or their stats.

Put SU76 into T2, and increase build time heheheheh

Both units are too weak for the time they appear. The'd be fine in a hipothetic Tier 2.5, but T3&T4 arrive when axis armies have tank destroyers and powerful AT infantry.

I don't see any way to make them viable unless they receive a huuuuge cost decrease, what will cause lots of problems of balance due to spam.

Perhaps that will be the easiest method greeb. right now it is better to just prepare for the late game or build safer options like T34

SU-76 is never a safe option. Infantry can ignore it if not for its once a minute, easily dodged barrage. Light vehicles can outmanoever it easily since it has no firing cone. Tanks can barely be penned by it even if they expose their rear. Tank destroyers laugh at its face as they pop it open in 2 shots; I had a game where my Jagdpanzer 4 destroyed 7 SU-76s.

In a meta where P4s and Pumas are common on the Axis side, not to mention Tigers and KTs, there is absolutely no reason to waste even a drop of fuel on a unit that is only a threat to halftracks and badly microed infantry (the latter only once a minute). It needs to either be swapped, or to change role into a direct fire, anti-infantry platform. Make it akin to a StuG E and maybe it will carve itself a place in the meta.

While I have begun to like the idea of swapping su76 and t70, I still think swapping su76 with t34 would be equally good option to go for. This way you would have light vehicles in one building and mediums + katy in t4. Then just fuel cost reduction for t3 building and suddenly soviets have options other than waiting for the call-ins.

Now if something was also done to make shocks and guards non-essential (redefine penals, perhaps? ) we might see more variety in commander choices for soviets.

give the su76 anti inf killing power with its main gun! not to the same degree as the stug-e maybe. like the scott perhaps

I think we can all agree that making the SU76 function like the M8 Scott would be a good thing but what if SU76 got "radio Network" like Shermans to increase their mobility and ROF when they are near other friendly armor?

I've been a fan and advocate for this change. It's very easy to see that the T-70 would be useful in T4 without any changes at all. That said, SU76 in T3 would still be the same poorly designed unit without some minor adjustments, but even still, it MIGHT find some use in T3, because in tier 4 it is vastly underpowered compared to the other options available.

On the side topic ("SU76 sux") that has formed in this thread, yes SU76 in T3 wouldn't suddenly make it a better unit, but in T3 there is room to tweak it slightly to better fill a particular role, since it won't be competing with the SU85/Kat.

Move it to T3 and make it cheaper maybe? It feels safer to just get a T34. Perhaps making it cheaper would get players to buy it once they have enough fuel.

The best thing that could happen to SU-76 is to be removed from the game and be replaced by KV1

yah its mind-boggling how some units are only doctrine specific. must be a cash grab by relic/sega