Armored Reserve Doctrine (DLC commander idea)

Hey guys, just going to paste this from the official forum as I know not all of you frequent it. I'm new here and you have loads of different sub-forums, so feel free to move this to the correct one. I'm not really sure which one it'd go under here.

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Okay, I've been thinking about a unit we all know will be added to the game at some point - the mighty King Tiger. It seems inevitable that it will appear at some point in 2014, and so the only question is how. Also, we need not throw around too much hyperbole as to its power and the general fear that it will be inherently OP and destroy the Soviets immediately. It won't.

Firstly, a brief note on specifics; when Relic decide to model the Tiger II, they should do the square Henschel turret and not the more rounded Porsche turret used in vCoH. We can (and will) all argue about stats and balance, but they can always change; the model is something that won't be changed and so the more popular variant should be designed.

In the spirit of vCoH and the much-loved Terror Doctrine, I've been thinking about a way of creating a DLC commander that provides some of the late-game awesomeness of the Wehrmacht, but combined with the total war/last stand mentality they had after 1944. I always loved the premise of the King Tiger in vCoH, but I felt the unit itself was something of a liability, and that added to its charm and helped balance it. My favourite doctrine in vCoH was always Defensive, and it touched on the late-war 'dig in' mentality that the Germans had, and I think that can (and should) be brought to CoH2 in some small way.

This post will be quite long because as well as listing what this commander would have, I need to explain the new units/abilities to you and my ideas as to how they would all function. Obviously this is all fictional at this point, but it's something to consider and discuss.

The trick, as ever, is to try to balance things. I'll follow Relic's template and suggest three new abilities and two vanilla ones.

Armored Reserve Doctrine

2CP: Volkssturm Militia
4CP: Smoke Bombs
5CP: Hull Down
6CP: People's War
11 CP: King Tiger

Note: I am going by the current game's CP system, but ideally I'd like to see the KV-2, ISU-152 and Elefant dropped to 9 CP.

Thoughts:

Volkssturm Militia

These guys would be like a cross between Osttruppen, Partisans and Shock Troops; they'd be self-balancing by being physically very weak (the same HP as Osttruppen) but having good weaponry. So, at around 240 MP you'd get a five-man squad armed with Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 assault rifles, which would be similar to MP44s in terms of damage but with the caveat that these guys are untrained conscripts with poor accuracy and longer reload times. It wouldn't be anything like a 240 MP Panzergrenadier squad with an extra man; Volkssturm would be quite good at augmenting your regular troops or for throwing at enemy weapon crews, but unlike Osttruppen they'd have no defensive modifiers and would die quickly under sustained fire.

2 CP is early enough to make them relevant for most of the game, but not too early so as to attempt to use them in lieu of Grenadiers, for which they are not designed.

Smoke Bombs

An underused vanilla ability only available with two other commanders, and so I thought it'd be nice to have here. I think this is neglected because it's not a very flashy or exciting ability, and against the AI is of limited use, but if you've ever had it used against you in MP then you'll know how annoying it is for a good chunk of the map to all of a sudden become FoW whilst some enemies you were chasing seemingly disappear. I think combined with clever micro and the prospect of a King Tiger this would be a great asset. It's a very good stock ability.

Hull Down

Another great but underused vanilla ability, and especially since it was buffed a few patches ago. This can be used both offensively - moving your frontlines forward - or defensively to protect a bridge or choke point. I think it fits the theme of the doctrine, and of course a hulled down King Tiger would be a very dangerous (but vulnerable) prospect.

People's War

The signature ability of this doctrine and another hark back to the Terror and Defensive doctrines in vCoH. The idea with People's War (aka Volkssturm) is that all player-controlled units within your own territory will have accuracy, cooldown and RoF boosts whilst active. This means that your Grenadiers, Panzergrenadiers and Volkssturm Militia will be able to do more damage, more quickly, for 30 seconds, and is particularly useful for the latter as their default values for those attributes would normally be quite poor.

The downsides to this ability would be its long cooldown, the fact that it is only applied in friendly territory and that it immobilizes all units whilst active - and so they would be particularly vulnerable to things like flanking, KV-8s or doctrinal abilities such as bombing strikes and artillery. Naturally, it would leave your precious King Tiger at its most vulnerable. Timed carefully, however, People's War could save you from a potentially game-changing offensive and let you turn the game around.

King Tiger

Realistically, this is what most people would be paying for, and for good reason. Unlike the poorly-implemented Tiger Ace, however, the King Tiger could be a popular and well-balanced unit. Yes, it is supposed to be a bitch to take down, and yes it is supposed to make people think 'oh ****' as soon as they see it, but by limiting it to one at a time, giving it a reasonable price tag (~820/290) and because it has such a high CP and pop cost, it's normally something you're only going to see once per game - and even then, only if the German player has bothered to save up for it.

There's no reason that the King Tiger needs to be given ridiculously artificial mobility nerfs, as in reality it was a surprisingly agile vehicle considering its size and weight. The actual idea behind the King Tiger was to combine the best aspects of the Tiger and the Panther, which was fast, maneuverable and had effective sloped armour. This influence is obvious given that the King Tiger looks like an enlarged Panther, and indeed the Allies often saw Panthers (and even late model Panzer IVs) and mistakenly identified them as King Tigers.

Make it seriously bloody dangerous by all means, but balance this with the fact that a few T-34s and Conscript spam can still reliably cripple it.

This commander doesn't get Panzer Tactician or any gimmicky stuff like Troop Training; there's a defensive focus here, and I'd like to see a doctrine in which if you lost a King Tiger, you'd really feel that loss. It's big, it's mean, but it's seriously expensive and needs a lot of support to be used effectively. I also don't think this would be a commander that everyone bought and played all the time (*cough* Tiger Ace *cough) as I specifically gave it abilities which are not overly popular, perhaps even underused, and are very circumstantial. It's something that would fit a particular playstyle quite well but would not necessarily be super effective in competitive MP games, and certainly not an 'I win' commander. There are some serious flaws with these abilities, and they are intentional; Volkssturm Militia would sap your MP and drop like flies to Shock Troops or a Quad Mount, but equally they could push the game in your favour if used to bolster your regular troops, and if you wanted a defensive commander that played noticeably different to Defensive or Osttruppen (which is why I specifically avoided adding Trenches or the Officer, both of which were tempting) then I think this would be a great - and different - choice.

Anyway, thanks for reading. I know it's a massive post but I wanted to explain everything properly, so it didn't seem like a 'OMG! WTF?' post to Soviet players - of which I am one, incidentally.

Note: I am going by the current game's CP system, but ideally I'd like to see the KV-2, ISU-152 and Elefant dropped to 9 CP.

A very nice concept but I daresay the IS2/Tiger and most of the rest of the call-in tanks need to have their CP count bumped up rather than have everything shifted down, given how waiting with no tech for doctrinal units seems to be much more prevalent now.

A very nice concept but I daresay the IS2/Tiger and most of the rest of the call-in tanks need to have their CP count bumped up rather than have everything shifted down, given how waiting with no tech for doctrinal units seems to be much more prevalent now.

I hope not, as it takes far too long to get an ISU-152 for it to be feasible in most games. I am all for expensive, late-game units, but they should be a viable part of your doctrine and not a bonus 'if you have the time' thing.

Wow nice Doctrine, I would definatly buy it, King Tigers

historically inaccurate for all maps, seeing as most of them are in russia... as the Volkssturmgewehr was only used for like... 2 months by old men and teenagers to defend germany before the war ended

historically inaccurate for all maps, seeing as most of them are in russia... as the Volkssturmgewehr was only used for like... 2 months by old men and teenagers to defend germany before the war ended

So does Ostwind, Pershing, EastFront Semois/Langre

who cares?

Yeah, fuck you, spoilsport.

i'm not happy about the ostwind either MVGame
if the world was good it'd be flakpanzers

edit: and i also read somewhere that only about 1000 or so were built... so it means its even more stupid

Ostwinds? Far less than that. Literally about fifty were built.

Yep, only 43 were built ( 36 converted PIV's and only 7 new ones... )
Nevertheless, intersting doctrine you put togheter ! I hope Relic catches wind of your idea

Unlike the poorly-implemented Tiger Ace

In your opinion.

In your opinion.

In the opinion of 90% of people who've ever commented on it.

In your opinion.

Everyone with at least a slight understanding of RTS games shares his opinion.

I hope not, as it takes far too long to get an ISU-152 for it to be feasible in most games. I am all for expensive, late-game units, but they should be a viable part of your doctrine and not a bonus 'if you have the time' thing.

That would be 1v1s. 2v2s and up usually end up with heavy callins. I think a (small)shift upwards would be better than downwards rushed out hevies.

It's a nice looking doctrine, however I won't be buying it or any other for that matter.

To bring such an iconic unit into the game (King Tiger) and expect me to pay for it is out of the question. But Relic will do it no doubt because the business model works, oh well.

Sounds good to me.

11 cps? are you kidding?
assuming you want it to be balanced for the cost you proposed it should not come before 13 cps probably more.
the main problem of early cps armor is that players will use them instead of getting t4, just as tiger doctrines behave now or t34-85s for soviets

also you don't have offensive art in the doctrine (unlike coh1) that will make zis gunns a big problem

on the other hand there is no need to put Volkssturm Militia at 2 cps while you have AGs on 0 cp and soviet elite at 1

finally... with tons of commanders already in the game (some badly balanced and rarely used) i personally would prefer not having any new commander for the next 4-6 months.
meaning i prefer 6 new commanders to be offered very half a year rather then 1 new commander every month. in that way i will have a somewhat balanced unannoying game for at least 5-4 months

You've just highlighted the reasons why 11 CP is fine.