Elite Mod - Snipers

I want to move the sniper discussion here because it's dominating the main thread at the moment which I'd like to keep reasonably clear so people can see when new releases come out and so on.

The sniper issue is contentious and I'm not a 100% supporter of the current fix (which is always hitting countersnipes except on retreat) nor am I a big proponent of the system the way it is now (50% chance of hitting an enemy sniper).

The facts as they stand:

- Right now, the sniper versus sniper battle can be decided by a coin flip.
- A countersnipe is worth a minimum of 340mp, which is the largest single amount than any one RNG factor is worth. The only single RNG factor worth more than this was the 5% bug, which was fixed.
- There are not enough countersnipe opportunities in any given game of a typical duration for the 50% odds to balance out. Whereas every other RNG factor (for example, whether a garand rifle lands a critical hit on an individual enemy unit) will be calculated hundreds if not thousands of times across the span of a game, countersnipes only happen a few times.
- Therefore 50% countersnipes can feasible mean missing every countersnipe opportunity in the game, while your opponent lands every one of his. This is far from ideal.

Proposed fixes:



Pros: No more missing countersnipes. If a player sets up a CS attempt he will always hit, therefore there is no chance of the game dicking him by having him miss every attempt while his opponent hits - this can easily decide games.
Cons: Removes the micro aspect of moving after firing in favour of placing more emphasis on using the map and shotblockers. However this is dependent on the map actually having said shotblockers. Snipers can retreat and be completely safe from countersniping, making combined jeep/bike decloak + sniper pushes less useful.



Pros: Micro aspect of moving after firing remains in the game. Players remain in control of the countersnipe attempt; they accept the risk of trying to CS a sniper in cover with full knowledge that it may not hit (and conversely the player being sniped accepts the inherent risk of firing from a position of no cover).
Cons: Would affect all units, not just enemy snipers. Therefore however you fiddled the numbers, regular infantry in cover would gain some protection from snipers (not necessarily a bad thing, but would depend on the numbers used).



Pros: Discourages 'Rambo' sniper usage (running up to cloaked snipers with your own cloaked sniper to fire at point blank), encourages micro of snipers to stay at max range, player remains in control of the risk factor of a CS, micro of moving after firing remains.
Cons: Might seem arbitrary.



Pros: Snipers become easier to kill by other means than countersnipers. Sniper micro becomes more significant.
Cons: Potential large meta changes, unpredictable, countersnipe attempts retains a chance of missing.

This is, after all, a mod, not a patch (for now, anyway), so there's no real time constraints here- we're free to experiment. Leave thoughts and suggestions below, and please divert discussion from the main thread, thanks.

I'm just about to reinstall vCoH to give this mod a try so I'm speaking from opinion compared to experience of playing the mod (at present). Personally I'd love to see the snipers matched up with how they work in CoH 2 currently with stealth only working while in cover (especially as they cost less in vCoh) but I think this would upset a lot of vCoh die-hard's even though players regularly use snipers without the stealth ability.

If I'm being honest though, all the suggested changes are a step in the right direction compared to the last vCoh patch.

Although it's is yet to be tested and coded, theoretically I could code the following:

Make countersnipes 50% on move with heroic criticals on retreat.


Make the sniper have differing accuracy values against different cover types
I could make a passive ability which can change the armor type to another one in certain cover types, (a 2.0 version of sniper armor) so sniper accuracies can be set on unit-to-unit basis this way, but there can be issues that may arise, but I will test it out.

Make the sniper have differing damage values against in different cover types
Green: 50% of max health as damage suffered.
Yellow: 90% of max health as damage suffered.
None and Red: instant death

Also I will look at Pepsi's suggestion's, how can they be implemented (differing recloack time in different cover etc.)

I am no expert, but it seems to me that switching snipers to a passive cloak is the first option we should try. I think by implementing this two things will be achieved:

1) The importance of the counter-snipe decreases as the viability of other counters increases.

2) As sniper vulnerability goes up, a greater proportion of the player's manpower must be invested in units to protect his sniper, making spam less viable.

This may or may not be enough to fix the problem on its own. Increasing the counter-snipe hit rate to something like 85% (IMO determinism doesn't fit with CoH's character) is something that might be tried in addition to changing the cloak mechanic.

I would not recommend the passive cloak. It just changes the entire way snipers work.

A sniper will only become viable in the early game, with an exponentially decreasing value as the game progresses. In other words: If you get a sniper early game, you are against the clock to recover its cost, because as soon as any light vehicle comes into play, your sniper is as good as dead.

Let me remind everyone that in CoH2, units have armor settings, which provide a second layer of protection in the RNG. There is no such thing in vCoH.

Let me remind everyone that in CoH2, units have armor settings, which provide a second layer of protection in the RNG. There is no such thing in vCoH.

? could you elaborate

Because as soon as any light vehicle comes into play, your sniper is as good as dead.

If you leave your sniper unprotected now, once vehicles hit the field; they are dead too. You need to provide AT in any case.

Make countersnipes 50% on move with heroic criticals on retreat.

That'd be a straight buff which would make snipers even more dominant.

- There are not enough countersnipe opportunities in any given game of a typical duration for the 50% odds to balance out. Whereas every other RNG factor (for example, whether a garand rifle lands a critical hit on an individual enemy unit) will be calculated hundreds if not thousands of times across the span of a game, countersnipes only happen a few times.

I had a 40% health sniper get one shot once on the first (ONLY 1) shot of his M1 garand moving rifleman. It was a game vs Symbiosis on Sturzdorf.
RNG, this will not happen often but it still had a big impact on the game.



The existing system (with my smalls nerfs so snipers less dominating) is still my favorite.

If I really would have to choose a change it would be the passive cover one.

So Aimstrong, pretend SNF Season 5 was vcoh and you were in the finals vs DevM. You are both top of the game and sometimes it is THAT CLOSE that a luck roll can change the game. DevM went double sniper opening as Wehr and you go WSC to counter. You line up the perfect CS and your sniper misses his and his 2nd one in turn snipes yours. OK, so you just sacrificed time, MP, and fuel for the WSC and the one sniper which is now for nothing and most likely you just lost 5K+ in prize winnings. Sounds good?

But why does it HAVE to work 100% fullproof. Why would the sniper have to be the only true counter to another sniper? Maybe teching up would have been a great choice? If you are playing vs Dual snipers as US, you don't charge head on, you bait the Wehrmacht out of his position a little by walking away. Since he went dual sniper he's likely to have an MG less.
This gives you room to flank and kill of his snipers or even just force to retreat them, cap up the map and maybe even intercept his snipers.
Hell on Semois / Angoville you could even send a riflesquad into his base to kill the snipers off on retreat.

And that's one of the beauties lower rifle reinforce costs give you: You can (don't have to) take more risk in flanking and snipers are less manpower effective vs lower reinforce costs.

Other than that, I agree with everything Aimstrong says.

What about (along with 100% CS) we decrease the recloak time but increase the multiplier.

So 1 shot is extremely difficult to get a countersnipe off, but successive shots makes it easier than it is now.

This would also mean that Snipers would be less of a self-counter on their own, they would need some kind of support to reveal the enemy Sniper. This would also be a "nerf" to Recon Run, since the Sniper would recloak very fast, whereas actual units would stay in range to keep the Sniper revealed longer.

I'm looking at Aimstrong's example here:

In the situation you mentioned there will be downsides for him to go those two snipers, allowing me to utilize my troops differently according to his unit composition. Negative zeal would help solve the problem, either by helping with my CS chance or by forcing him to spread his snipers, which gives me an advantage in not being countersniped back. Alternatively, with 100% hit, I would shoot his, he would shoot mine and he would still be one sniper ahead. Also, I can't speak for all, but I personally always made a point out of always trying to make sure my opponent wouldn't be able to shoot back after a countersnipe, by waiting till he had fired.

Where I wouldn't expect DevM to be able to get a CS off with his 2nd sniper on the very first shot that Aimstrong makes. But if he feels that it's likely, I think this change would help with that.

EDIT: We could also increase the time Sniper's recloak when revealed by units separately from recloak after shots, but then you run into the Recon Run problem again.

Sniper that reveals himself either by uncloaking manually or firing has 100% received accuracy. Sniper revealed by the opposing player (Jeep/Plane/Infantry/etc. is 50/50 while moving. Always 50/50 vs retreating snipers regardless if he just fired or was running uncloaked before

Returning fire on a sniper is a guaranteed kill, using other methods to reveal him is not.

Cloak mechanics or acc. vs cover shouldn't be changed imo, because this would require a whole new balancing of the T1/T2 units.

RNG should be reduced to a minimum -> snipers should hit with 100% chance, even on retreat and close combat.

Just played a game vs Tommy, withthe sniper dance. I just didn't feel the need to move sometimes. What's the point? XD
I just think it's a dumb system tbh. Countersnipes did not have effect on the game.
Bike going vs Dual sniper did though (:

I want to stress out though, I don't see our games as the best value meter of balance, because I feel I screw my micro so much up so many times. Just not being albe to select right units etc .
I think Tommy still has 2 gears to shift up aswell.

Unfortunately it's about the only games out there xD

What about keeping snipers pretty much the same, but increasing re-cloak timer? Multiply these by factors of 3, and sniper usage must be done more conservatively.

To balance, snipers could be reduced in MP somewhat.

What about keeping snipers pretty much the same, but increasing re-cloak timer? Multiply these by factors of 3, and sniper usage must be done more conservatively.

I'm starting to think this is the way. We're maybe over complicating the issue.

sniper is a fragile unit already so a jeep or bike can't mean insta suicide kill. But at same time, need to find a way to penalize greedy, sloppy sniper play.

I think increasing the recloak time is an easy solution. 1st shot relatively quick recloak. Subsequent shots and it increases exponentially. Especially if you can factor in group snipers as magnifying the recloak times.

Maybe add in group negative zeal for small arms fire at short distance to penalize sloppy play of getting snipers too close.

? could you elaborate

If you leave your sniper unprotected now, once vehicles hit the field; they are dead too. You need to provide AT in any case.

Unless my understanding of the CoH2 mechanics is failing me: Infantry have armor values as well. Enemy small arms fire must first check to see if it hit (accuracy) then check to see if that hit penetrates, then apply damage. All infantry have 80hp, snipers have 40hp.

In CoH 1, if I recall correctly, no such layer exists. Sure, there are different "armors" but these never negate a shot. They instead provide reduced damage (such as PGrens vs Bars or Heroic armor vs Snipers).

That's why Im saying that we shouldn't rely on CoH2 snipers alone. It might not yield the same results. I didn't play Modern Combat a lot, but I recall the US sniper had to be cloaked in cover, afterwards he could move about. Not sure how it worked out competitively.

As far as survivability, yes, snipers need to take more care once vehicles roll in regardless BUT, right now they can cloak anywhere and everywhere. I could easily hide my sniper in the map, and dare an enemy player to find it with his M8. The low detection radius gives me a big advantage to any vehicle save a jeep/bike.

Passive cloak is not necessarily a bad idea, though, but maybe there's other things that can be attempted before its implemented.

COH1 has the same 'infantry armors'. Just an FYI.

Anyways on topic:

I feel like taking away the dodging with snipers takes away a bunch of gameplay. I don't like the current system. It doesn't promote kiting or anything. The only thing the current system promotes is that your countersniper WILL PAY OFF CERTAINLY.

THE ONLY situation where I would want the countersnipe to hit if the sniper was running with attack move on, countersniper fires a shot but misses boom, attacking moving sniper kills countersniper.

So basically the only situation I would want a sniper to be 100% is where it's just moving on an attack move order NOT when being moved away (then the vcoh system applies). But I'm afraid that would be hard to implement. Idk if it's possible though (Received accuracy FROM SNIPER modifier when A moving?. It sounds like mission impossibru.

Hmmm, I was pretty sure all shots penetrated equally in CoH1 (with accuracy and damage being penalized), I guess you learn something new every day.

Tommy: Would implementing an ability for the sniper, specifically for countersnipes be viable? I think it would perhaps be too much work/outside the scope of the mod, but it feels like a straight off ability that requires: a)timing and b)positioning would require enough skill to make it interesting.

It's just 50% counternsipe is not skill at all. It makes no difference, against another sniper, whether you kite or not. You need to kite versus normal enemies, but an enemy sniper will countersnipe you just the same at any range, and attack+move ANYWHERE isn't exactly the most pro micro ever.

Hmmm, I was pretty sure all shots penetrated equally in CoH1 (with accuracy and damage being penalized), I guess you learn something new every day.

@Tommy: Would implementing an ability for the sniper, specifically for countersnipes be viable? I think it would perhaps be too much work/outside the scope of the mod, but it feels like a straight off ability that requires: a)timing and b)positioning would require enough skill to make it interesting.

It's just 50% countersnipe is not skill at all. It makes no difference, against another sniper, whether you kite or not. You need to kite versus normal enemies, but an enemy sniper will countersnipe you just the same at any range, and attack+move ANYWHERE isn't exactly the most pro micro ever.

If sniper always had 50% dodge, but you could spend munitions on an ability that guarantees 1005 counternsipe, but must be activated ON the enemy sniper, at a shorter range than max, while it is revealed, then it makes sense. Not only that, but if allies want to use recon, then they must spend even more resources to perform the combo (fair trade).

Its easy to throw suggestions though, not sure how difficult it is to implement (the british counternsipe is a starting archetype though)

afaik in coh1 units have an "armor type" (there are many of them if i remember correctly, normal, soldier, heroic, elitè) that affects how effective specific weapons are against that type of armor. In COH2 there's no such thing but just a generic parameter called "armor" which has a value (unlike coh1) that has an impact on if a bullet that "hits" you is also going to do damage.

This parameter is quite dependent on RNG tho (since it's based on %) while in COH1 the system is such that when you hit a target you always deal damage, but the damage changes based on what armor the infantry squad you are shooting at has and which weapon you are using.

Armor is probably one of the factors that creates so much RNG around snipers survivability in COH2 (and one of the reasons because Conscripts v. Grens is a bit imprevedible). It sometimes happens that a German sniper survives many many shots because they all get deflected by the armor (due to the RNG), while other times the first few shots kill him.

Overall I think that the COH1 system was much more consistent and less reliable on RNG even if it's much more complex to deal with and for players to understand.

A Good idea would make CS scalable by the ammount of shots the opposing sniper shoots, I tried to counter snipe Basilone yesterday, after he shot 3 or 4 shots and it missed, which was a pain.

It's a coin toss, after all. Sometimes it will win, sometimes it will lose. Sometimes many times in a row: the only time it will miss or hit roughly once every two shots, is if you shot each other around 200 times or more.

Hell even a 65% chance to hit is better than 50%, as far as RNG goes.