A comprehensive theory about where Relic is going...

Well that's why I'm baffled, they are investing a fair amount of money in the competitive scene yet they apparently aren't interested in developing the competitive scene.

So what is it?

I would prefer they invest this money into balancing the game, rather competitive scene for now.

I would prefer they invest this money into balancing the game, rather competitive scene for now.

nvm. lol.

I personally don't see how the previous scene was "thrown under a bus" as you put it.

I am not privy to the conversations that go on in the basement but if they weren't interested in you guys they wouldn't have invested all that money in SNF5 nor would they spend all that money on international flights to get some of the more influential community members to their HQ.

You're right, though you could be cynical about it and see those two events as marketing investments. Not saying that's the case, but you could see them that way if you wanted to.

I'm more talking about the changes that have been made and the comments that have been made since the DLC commanders started coming out; that speaks louder to me than just throwing money at the problem does. Before then, I think everybody was still optimistic and excited about CoH2's future. Sure, it wasn't a great game, and it probably would never be vCoH in terms of how every aspect of the game came together so amazingly, but with the right changes it definitely had potential, and people were still interested in it competitively. Peter was streaming and actively discussing balance with the community and it felt like things were actually getting done. The game at launch wasn't great, but at least it was getting better.

Then the DLC commanders happened, and the rest is pretty much history. Their release schedule makes balancing practically impossible, their designer could care less about how they impact competitive play, and they give tangible gameplay benefits to players who spend money above and beyond the $60 they have already invested. Not to mention these changes happened within 6 months of release, when the game was hardly in a state fit for competitive play in the first place.

I'll be honest. Even without the DLC commanders, CoH2 as a game doesn't particularly interest me. Using commanders to give players more options instead of building those options into the core game isn't very compelling to me, even if those commanders were free. But I love the franchise, and I would've stuck with it if I knew the developers were doing their best to make the game competitive. It's difficult to care when a lot of the evidence suggests they largely aren't.

That's what I mean when I say they threw us under the bus. CoH2 isn't a game made for us, the people who organized and ran and played and watched vCoH tournaments. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's the very real chance that there's another group of people out there willing to devote as much to CoH2 as we did to vCoH. Maybe in a few years Relic can get in a groove and make CoH2 a great game, even if it doesn't appeal to those who played vCoH. Hell, maybe they can change my mind, and I will gladly eat my words if they do. If they can grow and succeed with this model, more power to them. But I don't think you can blame the vCoH community for not enjoying a game that is so incredibly distant from the game we enjoyed for the past 5 or 6 years.

I am fine with the game being team oriented because of the added layers of strategy and synergy it adds to the currently dry meta and while i will agree that luftwaffles are a support oriented doctrine intended for team games i think that TA and SI are str8 stupid and dont deserve to be in any serious strategy game .

Unfortunately the lack of a proper game lobby hinders the team aspect of the game and lack of a proper replay system and observer mod additionally hinders the casting of larger games by single casters which is already very difficult to do so . So i dont think thats exactly their goal sluberz .

Direct insults to Relic and Relic Developers are not allowed on COH2.ORG Basilone.

Anyway... There will be no competitive scene. The spamfest is not appealing anymore.

It's impossible for a game to be competitive with that DLC policy.

If you can't change the mistakes you did with a commander because you sold it, then your game is damned.

IpKai summe dit all well in the article he did.

Relic needs to make a competitive game, but the community also needs to help. It's a vicious cycle though: Relic will throw money at SNF because people watch it (1k viewers last time? Thats good), but that doesn't mean it's whats going to bring them money. If DLC returns are better than Competitive match returns for the game and thecompany, then why should they focus on the competitive scene?

Competitive players are not necessarily the hardcore fanbase of the game... A competitive player is sometimes even more nitpicky and will transition quickly if the state of the game is not to his liking. A casual gamer will keep buying DLC's, and will buy the next RTS if the marketing campaign was enticing enough (yours or the other company's).

You're right, though you could be cynical about it and see those two events as marketing investments. Not saying that's the case, but you could see them that way if you wanted to.

I'm more talking about the changes that have been made and the comments that have been made since the DLC commanders started coming out; that speaks louder to me than just throwing money at the problem does. Before then, I think everybody was still optimistic and excited about CoH2's future. Sure, it wasn't a great game, and it probably would never be vCoH in terms of how every aspect of the game came together so amazingly, but with the right changes it definitely had potential, and people were still interested in it competitively. Peter was streaming and actively discussing balance with the community and it felt like things were actually getting done. The game at launch wasn't great, but at least it was getting better.

Then the DLC commanders happened, and the rest is pretty much history. Their release schedule makes balancing practically impossible, their designer could care less about how they impact competitive play, and they give tangible gameplay benefits to players who spend money above and beyond the $60 they have already invested. Not to mention these changes happened within 6 months of release, when the game was hardly in a state fit for competitive play in the first place.

I'll be honest. Even without the DLC commanders, CoH2 as a game doesn't particularly interest me. Using commanders to give players more options instead of building those options into the core game isn't very compelling to me, even if those commanders were free. But I love the franchise, and I would've stuck with it if I knew the developers were doing their best to make the game competitive. It's difficult to care when a lot of the evidence suggests they largely aren't.

That's what I mean when I say they threw us under the bus. CoH2 isn't a game made for us, the people who organized and ran and played and watched vCoH tournaments. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's the very real chance that there's another group of people out there willing to devote as much to CoH2 as we did to vCoH. Maybe in a few years Relic can get in a groove and make CoH2 a great game, even if it doesn't appeal to those who played vCoH. Hell, maybe they can change my mind, and I will gladly eat my words if they do. If they can grow and succeed with this model, more power to them. But I don't think you can blame the vCoH community for not enjoying a game that is so incredibly distant from the game we enjoyed for the past 5 or 6 years.

+million

Competitive game:
Long life for the game = regular sales in all game's life period.
Well received sequels = future sales, collector editions, etc.
Big and positive community = Good reception for another games by that developer.

Casual game:
Short life game = High sales first months, no $ after first year.
Bad received sequels = No one wants to be ripped off twice. No future sales.
Small and negative community = Bad advertisement online, can affect another games by that developer.

Choose your poison.
But currently we are in the second one.

Do you actually have any kind of facts backing you up, Greeb? I have sincere doubts the DLC model - the lack of demos - and hyped up titles do not make a lot of money Games are being produced, advertised and sold to the contrary your claims.

Nah you don't.

Sequels will be purchased. DLC will be paid for. It's a lot of talk you see on forums like this. Real men play wehrmacht, and real men look at what models are being kept.

Saying competitive = success, casual = failure is a pretty gross generalization IMO. However, when you narrow your scope to predominantly multiplayer games outside the FPS and MMO genres, there's a pretty strong correlation between success and competition. CoH falls into that category, being a largely multiplayer-focused RTS.

Competitive game:
Long life for the game = regular sales in all game's life period.
Well received sequels = future sales, collector editions, etc.
Big and positive community = Good reception for another games by that developer.

Casual game:
Short life game = High sales first months, no $ after first year.
Bad received sequels = No one wants to be ripped off twice. No future sales.
Small and negative community = Bad advertisement online, can affect another games by that developer.

Choose your poison.
But currently we are in the second one.

everything there is just made up assumptions based on no real facts or evidence.

Saying competitive = success, casual = failure is a pretty gross generalization IMO. However, when you narrow your scope to predominantly multiplayer games outside the FPS and MMO genres, there's a pretty strong correlation between success and competition. CoH falls into that category, being a largely multiplayer-focused RTS.

I wasn't trying to talk about fail/success.
Actually, I intended to say that probably the casual game gave more money, most of it in the short-term.
But the other one, the competitive, is the game that builds great IPs and big communities and finally makes profit in the long-term and translate that success to other same developer's games.

Suffocating your customers with DLCs that shatter competitive multiplayer games, independently of the sales, will affect negatively to future titles.
I think in english is called to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

everything there is just made up assumptions based on no real facts or evidence.

Yes, they're assumptions. Nobody has the "success' recipe" for a game, but as Inverse explained with better words than mine, most successful competitive games (RTS, Fighting games,...) tend to take care of these details.

For example, Capcom's "Tekken vs Street Fighter" was a failure because it wasn't competitive, in contrast to others of their games.

For example, Capcom's "Tekken vs Street Fighter" was a failure because it wasn't competitive, in contrast to others of their games.

Since the latest update it's easily Capcom's best fighting game.

Since the latest update it's easily Capcom's best fighting game.

That only shows that Capcom knows how to fix a mess.

Initially the game was terrible, a festival of unbalanced characters and far away from any competitive scene.
I'm glad they could fix it.

Let's hope Relic can change the course CoH2 has taken these last months.

Good patch.

Has again reinforced my trust in the balance team.
(though I still hold marketing team at arms length).