A comprehensive theory about where Relic is going...

Because they're different games. Dota 2 and LoL aren't RTS games. They don't work 1v1.

Look at SC2. A whole lot of people play that game 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4, yet the game is designed and balanced around 1v1. Because it's an RTS. You don't see 3v3 or 4v4 tournaments for SC2 because it's stupid; RTS games almost never work with large team sizes.

As for developing with competition in mind, three of the most popular multiplayer games right now are SC2, Dota 2, and LoL. They're also probably the three most competitive right now, and they were designed to be interesting competitive games. Having a thriving competitive community is great because it gives you free publicity and makes people want to play your game.

The developers of each of those games hold some of the largest, if not the absolute largest, yearly tournaments that those games have, and they target many of their changes at their respective competitive communities. And yet they still have thriving casual playerbases. It doesn't work the other way around; you can't pander to the casual audience and expect the hardcore competitive scene to thrive. It doesn't work that way. It's actually counter-productive, since by watering down the game you're making it more likely that players will simply jump ship to the next big thing once it gets released. If your game doesn't have depth it gets boring pretty damn quick.

From a buisness perspective, which is what it's all about, why should relic/sega not focus on 3v3 or 4v4? Besides some "elitists", who want "competition" and ongoing entertainment for paying 50$ once, there is no actual point against that model. For example LoL and DotA focus on 5v5 why would you do the exact opposite if you are slightly sane?

Your explanation is right, your deduction is not though.

Both LoL and Dota focus IMMENSELY on the competetiveness of their games, which, in the end (along with the F2P model) made these games so successful. Especially when you are expecting the casual players to pump money into your game (and the casual players ARE where the money is at), you got to make the game popular. One (good) way of doing that is by making the game competetive, by making people stream the game (LoL is usually the most watched game on twitch by a really big margin, unless some big Dota or SC2 tournament is on, CoH2 usually has less viewers than stuff you've never even heard of before). With a large enough player base, you ensure that you earn quite a bit of money even with a very low conversion rate on your DLCs, whereas Relic seems to be trying to get a very high conversion rate (enforced by making the game borderline unplayable without the DLCs, or at least playing with a severe disadvantage) with a very small player base.

1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5, XvX has nothing to do with the popularity, or else you would have to include stuff like Warthunder and World of Tanks too.

Edit:

sry, inverse was faster, but yeah, pretty much that.

With a large enough player base, you ensure that you earn quite a bit of money even with a very low conversion rate on your DLCs, whereas Relic seems to be trying to get a very high conversion rate (enforced by making the game borderline unplayable without the DLCs, or at least playing with a severe disadvantage) with a very small player base.

That's a smart way of looking at things.

That's a smart way of looking at things.

studied business information systems (with a focus on the "business/economics" part) before switching to computer science... a little bit actually stuck ;-)

1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5, XvX has nothing to do with the popularity, or else you would have to include stuff like Warthunder and World of Tanks too.

both games you mentioned have a larger player- and viewerbase, still, why would you go for 1v1 rather than games including more players?

How does more players in a single game session equate to a larger player base?

with coh2 obviously not beeing competitive, which nullifies the sc2 positive proof, I dare you to prove the opposite.

with coh2 obviously not beeing competitive, which nullifies the sc2 positive proof, I dare you to prove the opposite.

coh2. not competetive => small player base.

coh2. not competetive => small player base.

thx.

both games you mentioned have a larger player- and viewerbase, still, why would you go for 1v1 rather than games including more players?

When I want to play competitively with a team I will play an FPS or MOBA or an MMO, but not an RTS game. I sure play 2v2 and 3v3 modes with my GF in CoH2 but not competitively, just for fun. And if you look at the way the commanders are made, heck even the soviet faction. Commanders complete each other creating depth, same as the Soviet gameplay.... You can`t argue with that, I am sure you have noticed.
The way Relic goes it just feels that they are aiming for that casual play (for fun).
You see more variation in a 2v2 + mode that in 1v1.... (Right now the flavor of the month is spamm cons/grens) So I can`t understand how you see this game being balanced around 1v1.
Even TA commander makes sense now. You wont be able to hold out for 10 mins in 1v1, you will simply run out of VP. But in 2v2+ modes you can rely on your team mates to hold out for you while you sit and wait for the resources to kick back in again.
I am really disappointed by Relic at this moment. I quit the game for like 2 months and came back a month ago and the game looks worse than it was before.

http://www.coh2.org/news/1281/building-the-foundations-making-coh-huge

tl;dr a thriving competitive scene isn't the sole responsibility of the developer, it's also up to the community to show they want it. By actually fucking turning up to competitive events for starters.

http://www.coh2.org/news/1281/building-the-foundations-making-coh-huge

IpKai, glad you found this post. But lets be honest here right now. Did you enjoy the last SNF? Did you enjoy watching 5-7 cons/grens running around? Did you like OMPOP 8 T-34/85 `s? I personally didn`t. With every patch this games looses the "S"=Strategy from the RTS and replaces it with another "S"=Spamfest.

sadly the thread derailed...crawler inverse and I should have a private chat

http://www.coh2.org/news/1281/building-the-foundations-making-coh-huge

tl;dr a thriving competitive scene isn't the sole responsibility of the developer, it's also up to the community to show they want it. By actually fucking turning up to competitive events for starters.

I agree, but it's hard when the game is so uninteresting competitively. We had pretty close to zero developer support for years in vCoH and yet we thrived because everyone loved the game and wanted it to succeed. CoH2 has done a very good job of pissing off and alienating all the people who loved vCoH and showed up to events and played and organized and dedicated their free time to it.

Maybe another group of people will come along and have the same passion for CoH2 that we had for vCoH, and maybe then the scene will thrive. But I'd think it would be a lot easier to retain and build on the community that grew around your previous game in spite of its lack of support than to throw them under the bus and hope a similar group replaces them.

I agree, but it's hard when the game is so uninteresting competitively. We had pretty close to zero developer support for years in vCoH and yet we thrived because everyone loved the game and wanted it to succeed. CoH2 has done a very good job of pissing off and alienating all the people who loved vCoH and showed up to events and played and organized and dedicated their free time to it.

Maybe another group of people will come along and have the same passion for CoH2 that we had for vCoH, and maybe then the scene will thrive. But I'd think it would be a lot easier to retain and build on the community that grew around your previous game in spite of its lack of support than to throw them under the bus and hope a similar group replaces them.

You are pretty aggressive for a Canadian =)

That was aggressive? I didn't think that was aggressive at all.

This is post #666 though, so maybe you're right.

I personally don't see how the previous scene was "thrown under a bus" as you put it.

I am not privy to the conversations that go on in the basement but if they weren't interested in you guys they wouldn't have invested all that money in SNF5 nor would they spend all that money on international flights to get some of the more influential community members to their HQ.

That was aggressive? I didn't think that was aggressive at all.

This is post #666 though, so maybe you're right.

Sweet Lord, a Canadian Satanist !!! XD

I personally don't see how the previous scene was "thrown under a bus" as you put it.

I am not privy to the conversations that go on in the basement but if they weren't interested in you guys they wouldn't have invested all that money in SNF5 nor would they spend all that money on international flights to get some of the more influential community members to their HQ.

So was it Hans who said DSHK was a good idea? =)

...they wouldn't have invested all that money in SNF5 nor would they spend all that money on international flights to get some of the more influential community members to their HQ.

Which I feel was a quite a bad move by relic and still has a painfull aftermath.