In all honesty, this is borderline politics and rapidbly becoming taboo.
I don't have much trouble discussing history (I love to) but whats the point of this? Its not only heavily biased on both sides, it leads nowhere. If people knew the exact intentions behind WW2 events, they'd be earning an international award and rewriting history books everywhere.
None of us here are close to that.
So, I missed the whole "why russians hate coh2" thing...
- This thread is locked
3 Dec 2013, 03:56 AM
#101
Posts: 642
3 Dec 2013, 08:43 AM
#102
Posts: 202
In all honesty, this is borderline politics and rapidbly becoming taboo.
I don't have much trouble discussing history (I love to) but whats the point of this? Its not only heavily biased on both sides, it leads nowhere. If people knew the exact intentions behind WW2 events, they'd be earning an international award and rewriting history books everywhere.
None of us here are close to that.
...and clearly Relic isn't either.
I feel dirty and ashamed to even be associated with the game now. -Esky
RE: This is exactly how I felt after watching your stream for a few minutes once. -The_Riddler
RE: This is exactly how I felt after watching your stream for a few minutes once. -The_Riddler
3 Dec 2013, 10:32 AM
#103
Posts: 688
I read some posts here by ppl who go like 'OK so the soviets did commit genocide and violate human rights. But Relic is to blame for showing it in the game'.
Are you NUTS?
I'm kind of inclined to agree with the 'soccer mum' theory that Babaroga just posted in another thread.
Has everyone gone so SOFT and political corret that they just want games to shut out everything contorversial?
Do you just want to sit quietly and spend your money at make-believe commanders in feel-good stories.
C'mon! What has happened to the war-gaming community?
Are you NUTS?
I'm kind of inclined to agree with the 'soccer mum' theory that Babaroga just posted in another thread.
Has everyone gone so SOFT and political corret that they just want games to shut out everything contorversial?
Do you just want to sit quietly and spend your money at make-believe commanders in feel-good stories.
C'mon! What has happened to the war-gaming community?
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
3 Dec 2013, 17:13 PM
#104
Posts: 598
...and clearly Relic isn't either.
and relic never claims to be a history teacher. relic just wanted to tell a story based on what they learned about the eastern front.
3 Dec 2013, 17:27 PM
#105
Posts: 202
I read some posts here by ppl who go like 'OK so the soviets did commit genocide and violate human rights. But Relic is to blame for showing it in the game'.
Are you NUTS?
I'm kind of inclined to agree with the 'soccer mum' theory that Babaroga just posted in another thread.
Has everyone gone so SOFT and political corret that they just want games to shut out everything contorversial?
Do you just want to sit quietly and spend your money at make-believe commanders in feel-good stories.
C'mon! What has happened to the war-gaming community?
Woa, woa, woa, gramps. Calm down. It's not about being "soft" or "politically correct", no one would give two shits if the soviets murdered PoWs or raped german women or something like that in the game with some moral story behind it, but the scenarios that unfold now are just beyond stupid.
It's about being at least halfway accurate and believable, and producing a fun game without annoying unrealistic, demeaning nonsense that pisses off a large chunk of your potential buying market.
I feel dirty and ashamed to even be associated with the game now. -Esky
RE: This is exactly how I felt after watching your stream for a few minutes once. -The_Riddler
RE: This is exactly how I felt after watching your stream for a few minutes once. -The_Riddler
3 Dec 2013, 18:00 PM
#106
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned@Esky: So basically you have a problem with the game portraying Soviet attrocities.
Also how can can you, with a straight face, say "No one would give two shits if the soviets murdered PoWs or raped german women"?!
I think you need to browse 4chan less and go outside more.
You talk about wanting an accurate depiction, well, here you have it, from the primary historical source of the writings of an officer and a journalist in the Red Army.
You talk about wanting realistic and believable portrayal, well, here it is.
Also how can can you, with a straight face, say "No one would give two shits if the soviets murdered PoWs or raped german women"?!
I think you need to browse 4chan less and go outside more.
You talk about wanting an accurate depiction, well, here you have it, from the primary historical source of the writings of an officer and a journalist in the Red Army.
You talk about wanting realistic and believable portrayal, well, here it is.
3 Dec 2013, 20:06 PM
#107
Posts: 642
...and clearly Relic isn't either.
But they have a right to express it anyway they want. If they want to say the German war machine got defeated by Soviet flying pig tactical bombings, then they can't. They can even label that as authentic.
You also have a right to disagree with their product, there's no foul there.
I can guarantee you this though: Whatever any of us were taught in school, is most likely VERY wrong. Whatever you watched in mainstream television, is probably inaccurate. This is not because they are necessary lying to you, but because they water history down so it can reach more people and give them the basic idea.
It doesn't mean soviet soldiers didn't rape innocent civilians before mutilating them or nailing them to houses. It also doesn't mean soviet soldiers didn't protect their home, didn't fight for a cause they believed just and right, or didn't contribute to eventual peace from a horrible war.
Everyone seems to be trying to prove who was more evil in the war, and justify their own evil. Two evils never make a right.
3 Dec 2013, 20:16 PM
#108
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedUltimately, really I think some Russians have problems with recognising Soviet action before, during, and after WWII, as actually "evil".
Thats the real problem here, that has been projected onto a game that now depicts them.
The Germans have also had a very hard time of accepting that their relatives where actually complicit in these attrocities. But theyve somehow managed in the intervening 60 years. Afterall, they themselves are not the ones who did them, but its vert hard to realise that your own relatives where doing this shit.
On the part of Russia, due to the Soviets "winning" this stuff was largely buried and hidden, due to the Soviet Union persisting for another 60 years after the war. As is said, and true, the victors write the history. But in the USSRs case, they had a vested interest in suppressing those facts. Just as, powers that be forbid, if the Nazis had won, they too would have suppressed their own dirt.
Its only recently, after the collapse of the USSR, that this stuff has even been possible to speak about publically in Russia. Before the collapse, you could get into really serious trouble for that. Not to mention the USSRs deliberate blockade on any outside information passing its borders. Even being in posession of a Western history book was considered at worst, a crime against the state, at best, earmarked you for very careful observation from the KGB. Imagine being a history teacher in the USSR and trying to teach kids about what attoricites their ancestors may have committed in the War? That was tantamount to suicide. Whats even more insane about it, is its the KIDS who would hsve reported you. After that, next stop, Siberia, if you should be so lucky.
Its not an easy thing ro do, to realise that your ancestors may have actually been absolute fuckheads who did unspeakable things to other human beings. And for Russia, as a new state now atleast superificially free feom state censure, its quite a shock to have to deal with what was buried for so long.
My own surname, is Schubakoff. My ancestors where Russians who fled the Revolution due to my great grandfather, who was a journalist, being considered a "white". During this period, huge amounts of Russians fled, and they fled everywhere. A global exodus. Most of them changed their surname to try and avoid social stigma, especially in Finland, but my grandfather, when he came of age, chose to keep his, despite rampant anti-Russian sentiment in Finland at the time. He fought against the Soviets when they attacked Finland, operating primarily as a translator, but due to the incredible limits on Finnish manpower, he also saw frontline action. He was denied promotion because of his last name, but nonetheless received medals for his actions in combat. As the war progressed however, and as Finland got the crazy idea to make a Greater Finland, and overstepped their eariler borders, he served as a translator in PoW camps. Ironically, the same ones that had been used for Finnish PoWs by the Soviets. This was common practice in WWIi, Stalin also repuprosed Nazi Concentrstion camps as PoW camps (which is a little known fact, imagine how fucked that is). He didnt like to speak of that time, and I was young, so I didnt ask enough, but it has in recent years from primsry sources become clear just how bad conditions where at those camps.
People where dying of starvation there, Ive collated as much from records. I remember my grandfather once, when drunk, referring to that, and it wasnt just the PoWs, it was the civilian population too. Russian women from around the camp would prostitute themselves for food for their fatherless families in an impossible situation. At that one time, my grandfather recounted that he gave what little he had freely to children and women, and did his best owing to his translator status, to represent the Russianpopulace of the camp and around it... I dont doubt that memory, or his sincerity, even though I was young and its normal to try and whitewash ones own sins in retrospect. This was after all a man who himself kept his Russian name of birth, even when everyone hated him for it and suspected him a collaborator...
That was, and is, still to this day, hard for me to deal with. I dont think my grandfather himself was complicitto attrocities, nor that he didnt do what he could to mitigate the suffering of those there...But he was nonetheless there, and I have to ask "could he have done more?" I never got the chance to ask him that, but Im fairly certain he asked bimself that every day of his life ntil his last.
TLDR: Every soldier in the war, and indeed every civilian, has a story to tell about how insane WWII was. Its realoy hard to deal with that, not because of national pride, or how these are depicted in a game, book, or movie, but because it was our families that where there. Even if they wherent the ones doing the attrocities, the question always arises that ehat did they do to stop it! How could these things happen! In this sense, there is a process of healing going on for Russia that is 60 years delayed. Its hard to deal with that. But none of us today are the ones who did these things. The sins of the father, as they say, are not ours. We have a better future and world to build, and ironic as it is, that is as based on the evil of our predecessors as it is the good.
As hard as this stuff from this period is to accept, what is more important, is to rememeber that there WHERE heroes. On all sides, and sometimes in the most unlikely of places and circumstances. The War brought out both the worst, unfortunately in great amounts, but also the best, in somewhat fewer cases... As far as Ive seen the narrative of Coh2, it presents the heroism of those who still made the right choices, when they could, in impossible circumstances that are almost impossible for a modern mindset to even fathom, let alone comprehend truly. No one person could have saved the world. No one person could make it all right. But atleast they tried, when they could, in what small way possble. In war, a single small kindness, a single small resistance against the prevailing inhumanity, is worth all so much more. And all too many of them, died for that, too.
There are our families and roots.
Among them, victims, criminals, those who did nothing either way, and those few among them who where real heroes.
I felt the protagonists in CoH2, where the latter of those.
Thats the real problem here, that has been projected onto a game that now depicts them.
The Germans have also had a very hard time of accepting that their relatives where actually complicit in these attrocities. But theyve somehow managed in the intervening 60 years. Afterall, they themselves are not the ones who did them, but its vert hard to realise that your own relatives where doing this shit.
On the part of Russia, due to the Soviets "winning" this stuff was largely buried and hidden, due to the Soviet Union persisting for another 60 years after the war. As is said, and true, the victors write the history. But in the USSRs case, they had a vested interest in suppressing those facts. Just as, powers that be forbid, if the Nazis had won, they too would have suppressed their own dirt.
Its only recently, after the collapse of the USSR, that this stuff has even been possible to speak about publically in Russia. Before the collapse, you could get into really serious trouble for that. Not to mention the USSRs deliberate blockade on any outside information passing its borders. Even being in posession of a Western history book was considered at worst, a crime against the state, at best, earmarked you for very careful observation from the KGB. Imagine being a history teacher in the USSR and trying to teach kids about what attoricites their ancestors may have committed in the War? That was tantamount to suicide. Whats even more insane about it, is its the KIDS who would hsve reported you. After that, next stop, Siberia, if you should be so lucky.
Its not an easy thing ro do, to realise that your ancestors may have actually been absolute fuckheads who did unspeakable things to other human beings. And for Russia, as a new state now atleast superificially free feom state censure, its quite a shock to have to deal with what was buried for so long.
My own surname, is Schubakoff. My ancestors where Russians who fled the Revolution due to my great grandfather, who was a journalist, being considered a "white". During this period, huge amounts of Russians fled, and they fled everywhere. A global exodus. Most of them changed their surname to try and avoid social stigma, especially in Finland, but my grandfather, when he came of age, chose to keep his, despite rampant anti-Russian sentiment in Finland at the time. He fought against the Soviets when they attacked Finland, operating primarily as a translator, but due to the incredible limits on Finnish manpower, he also saw frontline action. He was denied promotion because of his last name, but nonetheless received medals for his actions in combat. As the war progressed however, and as Finland got the crazy idea to make a Greater Finland, and overstepped their eariler borders, he served as a translator in PoW camps. Ironically, the same ones that had been used for Finnish PoWs by the Soviets. This was common practice in WWIi, Stalin also repuprosed Nazi Concentrstion camps as PoW camps (which is a little known fact, imagine how fucked that is). He didnt like to speak of that time, and I was young, so I didnt ask enough, but it has in recent years from primsry sources become clear just how bad conditions where at those camps.
People where dying of starvation there, Ive collated as much from records. I remember my grandfather once, when drunk, referring to that, and it wasnt just the PoWs, it was the civilian population too. Russian women from around the camp would prostitute themselves for food for their fatherless families in an impossible situation. At that one time, my grandfather recounted that he gave what little he had freely to children and women, and did his best owing to his translator status, to represent the Russianpopulace of the camp and around it... I dont doubt that memory, or his sincerity, even though I was young and its normal to try and whitewash ones own sins in retrospect. This was after all a man who himself kept his Russian name of birth, even when everyone hated him for it and suspected him a collaborator...
That was, and is, still to this day, hard for me to deal with. I dont think my grandfather himself was complicitto attrocities, nor that he didnt do what he could to mitigate the suffering of those there...But he was nonetheless there, and I have to ask "could he have done more?" I never got the chance to ask him that, but Im fairly certain he asked bimself that every day of his life ntil his last.
TLDR: Every soldier in the war, and indeed every civilian, has a story to tell about how insane WWII was. Its realoy hard to deal with that, not because of national pride, or how these are depicted in a game, book, or movie, but because it was our families that where there. Even if they wherent the ones doing the attrocities, the question always arises that ehat did they do to stop it! How could these things happen! In this sense, there is a process of healing going on for Russia that is 60 years delayed. Its hard to deal with that. But none of us today are the ones who did these things. The sins of the father, as they say, are not ours. We have a better future and world to build, and ironic as it is, that is as based on the evil of our predecessors as it is the good.
As hard as this stuff from this period is to accept, what is more important, is to rememeber that there WHERE heroes. On all sides, and sometimes in the most unlikely of places and circumstances. The War brought out both the worst, unfortunately in great amounts, but also the best, in somewhat fewer cases... As far as Ive seen the narrative of Coh2, it presents the heroism of those who still made the right choices, when they could, in impossible circumstances that are almost impossible for a modern mindset to even fathom, let alone comprehend truly. No one person could have saved the world. No one person could make it all right. But atleast they tried, when they could, in what small way possble. In war, a single small kindness, a single small resistance against the prevailing inhumanity, is worth all so much more. And all too many of them, died for that, too.
There are our families and roots.
Among them, victims, criminals, those who did nothing either way, and those few among them who where real heroes.
I felt the protagonists in CoH2, where the latter of those.
4 Dec 2013, 15:46 PM
#109
Posts: 2742
This thread is as tired, boring, heavy handed, and played out as the single player campaign of CoH2.
We've had decades upon decades of Cold War inspired reminders of the horrors of the Soviets and Nazis alike. I had honestly hoped for more of a portrayal of the German and Russian people.
We've had decades upon decades of Cold War inspired reminders of the horrors of the Soviets and Nazis alike. I had honestly hoped for more of a portrayal of the German and Russian people.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
4 Dec 2013, 16:09 PM
#110
Posts: 9
There are thousands of Nazi war crime related movie/documentary/monuments, etc.
It is in fact one of the most detailed and scrutinized par of WWI and WWII. Every single detail as been analyzed, Nazi operative have been arrested prosecuted even to this day.
We all know about it...
Now Relic "romanced" a story about the other side of the conflict (Now it is a exaggeration we know but it tells of little know facts like order # 227).
Maybe it is too exaggerated but during my game play I have associated with the hard ship of the Russian, being Canadian especially the winter ones.
War ain't pretty, war is war and anyone believing this game puts the German in a good light is dumb, they simply don't talk about the German. There is little to no story about them, clips maybe, little oh this battle was important, etc.
But really COH2 ignores the German. The story is about the Russian side of the conflict and by making it a tad too much, they may have picked people interest in going out to read and learn about what really happened.
p.s. The concept of "War crime" is a bit a long stretch in it's own way, war makes monsters out of human (killing other, seeing friends die, PTSTD, etc), everyone will become a monster once he has had enough. Does not excuse them but neither shoudl we blame only them.
It is in fact one of the most detailed and scrutinized par of WWI and WWII. Every single detail as been analyzed, Nazi operative have been arrested prosecuted even to this day.
We all know about it...
Now Relic "romanced" a story about the other side of the conflict (Now it is a exaggeration we know but it tells of little know facts like order # 227).
Maybe it is too exaggerated but during my game play I have associated with the hard ship of the Russian, being Canadian especially the winter ones.
War ain't pretty, war is war and anyone believing this game puts the German in a good light is dumb, they simply don't talk about the German. There is little to no story about them, clips maybe, little oh this battle was important, etc.
But really COH2 ignores the German. The story is about the Russian side of the conflict and by making it a tad too much, they may have picked people interest in going out to read and learn about what really happened.
p.s. The concept of "War crime" is a bit a long stretch in it's own way, war makes monsters out of human (killing other, seeing friends die, PTSTD, etc), everyone will become a monster once he has had enough. Does not excuse them but neither shoudl we blame only them.
8 Jul 2016, 13:29 PM
#111
1 Posts: 927
I saw some clips. I don't even want to play such a disgusting misrepresentation of history. The Christian cross on the partisan girl and the mention of capitalist is a nice touch, no? As is the germans not actually being germans according to their uniforms, but "Russian Liberation Army" soldiers. Did anyone do any historical digging at all?
Perhaps next we can all buy some DLC from the german perspective where we do much the same?
I won't image the pics here because I'd prefer to not be banned for it, but here's some ideas for the writers!! Let's piss off the german CoH community too, by misrepresenting the entire wehrmacht as well!
http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/56909.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LoPTdkHrjjk/SzB5_aNcVtI/AAAAAAAAGDc/Kxvd2fvENB8/s640/ww2-invasion-poland-second-world-war-two-incredible-dramtic-pictures-images-photos-historyimages.blogspot.com-german-soldiers-execute-polish-civilians.jpeg
I will continue to play multiplayer as both factions for the fun of the game but the single player storyline is just beyond words...
another butthurt communist...
Russian liberation army did exist you moron it was an army consisting of russians who fought to free russia from communism.
Communist warcrime was never "isolated incidents". That idealogy is responisble for over 100 million murders.
8 Jul 2016, 13:32 PM
#112
Posts: 4474
in the mud falt there is a necromancer kill all the monster reward :+ 1 passive Point (only path of exile player will get it)
another butthurt communist...
Russian liberation army did exist you moron it was an army consisting of russians who fought to free russia from communism.
Communist warcrime was never "isolated incidents". That idealogy is responisble for over 100 million murders.
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
8 Jul 2016, 13:38 PM
#113
Posts: 3293
uh this thread is from 2013 numbnuts...
/locked
/locked
Failure is always an option. 
It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!)
Caffeine illegal for WiFi's to ingest in 48 states, 2 colonies, and 1 providences. 
To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! 
and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!
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