So, I missed the whole "why russians hate coh2" thing...

I completely agree with what Esky wrote.

It's about time we put aside the differences in the cold war and appreciate what has been done for us by soldiers which, as all of the COH franchise has shown us, have very little effect on the policies of whatever governments and ultimately are just people fighting against each other.

By looking at a company rather than an army level, this franchise really should not include as much politics as they did (by that, I mean, make the things Esky described the main theme). Instead, they just derp at this point and make the main theme of the russians the things that they did.

Please, take your cold war nonsense and piss off. We know Stalin was bad, even worse than hitler, we know the soviets did terrible things, but in the CONTEXT of this game,

If one should not portray the consequences of stalinism in the context of WW2, then I don't know what?

Oh, wait: You'd rather see the genocide of the collectivization of the 30'ies? Brilliant idea, because more russians were killed during that time than during the war.

And for the record, this has got nothing to do with the Cold war. That battle ended long ago.

Nice try to point the discussion away, but no cookie.

If one should not portray the consequences of stalinism in the context of WW2, then I don't know what?

Oh, wait: You'd rather see the genocide of the collectivization of the 30'ies? Brilliant idea, because more russians were killed during that time than during the war.

And for the record, this has got nothing to do with the Cold war. That battle ended long ago.

Nice try to point the discussion away, but no cookie.

20 million Soviets were Killed in WW2, for 20 Million to killed during the purges and holomondor is impossible. I know the Soviet union during Stalin's reign was not exactly the most humane period and he did alot of horrible things, I am not denying that. The point is that every country did horrible things at some point in time in history its not fair to beat the Germans/Soviets over it if your not going to bash the Americans and British for theirs. The camnpiagn was suppose to represent the struggle soviets had to endure to liberate their homeland, instead we got a boring half-assed typical western take on the ostfront. Super l33t Germans mowing down brainless soviet soldiers charging machine guns en-mass like sheep.

for 20 Million to killed during the purges and holomondor is impossible.

Yes, you are right. That is an impossibly low number.
Its actually many tens of millions higher.

Why does this argument always derail into Stalinism and how many people were killed, that's not even the point. The point is how this game chose to represent a nation that was a part of their target audience.

If a Russian-made game showed the cruelty of American slavery in the old days and kept bashing it into your head for the entirety of its 14-mission campaign, I doubt Americans would be too happy to play that game. Did it happen? Yes, but who the hell wants to be reminded of a dirty stain on their nation's history, especially through a video game? I mean if it was a PSA or a social rally sure, but a video game? Come on.

Stop thinking of the issue from a third-party or Western perspective and try to step into a native Russian's shoes for a second (although I suppose this may be too hard for some of you).

Stop thinking of the issue from a third-party or Western perspective and try to step into a native Russian's shoes for a second (although I suppose this may be too hard for some of you).

The Soviet period (especially during Stalin) is not, and should not, be something to be proud of for Russians anymore than the period of Nazism is, or should be, for Germans.

but they should be proud of their unity and strength of their people, to be able to withstand attacks from a modern elite fighting force during that time and come up with powerful and effective weapons/tanks that could possibly rival the german's.

please dont make the sacrifices of the russian people during ww2 meaningless.

leave out the politics and show that the fighting was much more brutal and desperate for both sides instead.

as far as i know, soldiers from both sides feared each other because they knew that once captured, they will not be let off easy. one has the concentration camps, the other the gulags and both sides hate each other for what they have done to each other. this was a much more motivational factor to fight harder than order 227.

wongtp, you CANNOT leave politics out of war. War is caused by politics - bad politics in particular. Very, very rarely is there a war that is just or has proper meaning (not to say they have no meaning - they mean different things to different sides).

I'd like to point out that COH2 is based on a diary of a Russian dissident, heavily anti-communist, so its likely to have a massive slant on its story, one which Relic neither disagrees or agrees with, and was simply portraying.

The only memorable scene was the Polish rebels being killed, which just reminds me of the horrible things the Russians did to the Poles. I don't see how that makes COH2 anti-russian, just realistic.

I will say, COH as a series has made me respect the plight of other nations. I always feel sorry for the germans, many of whom were brainwashed little boys who were forced by propaganda and radical leaders to fight. I feel exactly the game for the Russians.

One must, however, acknowledge that Relic may not have done a perfect job portraying the Russians. All criticism isn't without merit.

but they should be proud of their unity and strength of their people, to be able to withstand attacks from a modern elite fighting force during that time and come up with powerful and effective weapons/tanks that could possibly rival the german's

Thats like saying Germans should be proud that they where so efficient at exterminating minorities in their concentration camps, or so effective at obliterating Russian resistance in the early years of the war. And proud that their Nazi nation was so unified as to be able to mount a military campaign that reached from the Atlantic all the way to Moscow.

Nor did the Soviets withdraw from Europe after the war. They illegally occupied and subjugated all of Eastern Europe for the next 60 years. Some "liberation", eh? They didn't just return to their boarders, and grant autonomy to the conquered nations they EXTENDED THEM well beyond the nations and the Unions de jure ones.

No, just no.

As I pointed out in another thread, at the point Nazi Germany set even one foot on Soviet soil, the Soviets had already illegally and military invaded and occupied the Baltics as well as Poland. The Soviet Union was just as much an aggressor on Europe as where the Nazis.

Both where evil empires with the blood of untold millions of innocents on their hands.
Good riddance to both.

Here's how I see it: everyone committed war crimes in World War 2. Some countries were worse than others but no country was spotless. The Allies bombed the fuck out of a bunch of civilians, for instance, just in case that would help (it didn't).

But did we see any of this in the original Company of Heroes? No, of course not. That game was about heroes, and in the single player, all of the Americans were amazing people who were brave and tough and funny and noble. Even the Germans came off pretty well in that game: the game didn't show them doing anything evil and in the multiplayer it even humanized them quite a bit. You got a really good perspective of the average soldier just trying to make it through the war.

Then we get to Company of Heroes 2 and are all the Soviets heroes? No, suddenly it's really important that we know that a lot of the Soviets were assholes too. But why is this important all of a sudden? Why does Russia get the "well we have to be true to history and show the true horrors of World War 2" treatment, when back in Company of Heroes, the Allies were portrayed as the coolest people in the world who would never think of doing anything bad?

Well said, Tycho.

@Esky: Yes, the Soviets at first glance seem to be misrepresented, but in fact, the campaign is not about the Soviet Army. It's about the experiences of ONE man, and his relationship to his commanding officer. They show ONE other commanding officer, the one in the penal battalions, which also happened to be rough.

Its a fictional account, in a fictional universe, not a documentary. It's like being mad at Inglorious Basterds (which, by the way, also has many VERY authentic things, besides the plot).

What if we said then, that it is not the soviets that are misrepresented, but rather: The Germans and the Americans?

The Japanese raped and pillaged. The Soviets raped and pillaged. The Germans raped and pillaged. The Commonwealth raped and pillage. The Americans raped and pillaged.

All of them also had very brave, courageous and respectable men and women.

War is horrible business and the truth of the matter is, heroes usually don't come alive to tell stories. If anything, it is really hard to get stories out of real soldiers because they are reluctant to talk about it with civilians like us.

CoH2 is NOT about the Soviets. Its about one man, caught in a war he doesn't want to fight in. The Soviet winter and push to Berlin are merely the setting for that story.

I agree with the OP for 2 reason. 1 the single player aspect in coh2 is pathetic. In its execution and in the story it is telling, its cliche, full of complete lies and its extremely poorly executed.

The aim of the german invasion was that of annihilation of the russian human being. Russia was seen as nothing more than living space and by the 70's the plan was for most of russian human beings to be completely wiped out and the rest turned into a slave race.

The russian solider was literally fighting for survival, and none of this was shown in the campaign at all. In fact the only thing portrayed was how bad the soviet state was.. which it was but as everyone else says so was every other nation.

Focusing only on the negatives portrays the soviet military in a light that makes it look worse than the nazis, which it was not. As basically in every maneuver or every new territory capture the Wehrmacht was complicit in genocide by aiding the SS and einsatsgroupen in wholesale murder of civilians ( including women and young children), as well as the inhuman treatment of millions of soviet POW.

The was in the east was the most brutal and large scale combat in the history of humanity - and none of this comes through in the singleplayer camping.

Relic dropped the ball in so many ways its worse than a joke, they made the most dramatic and massive conflict in modern times into a boring, cliche filled and inaccurate snooze fest.

I find it hard to believe that they read any history at all apart from watching some American films about stalingrad ie enemy at the gates. The way the story was conveyed was poor - especially when compared to the elegant way the singleplayer in vcoh was treated, the picture overlay with great voice acting story which humanized both sides of the combat.

A special mention has to be given to how bad the video cut scenes were and how terrible the voice acting was, to me it seemed like a parody and any emotion that it tried to creat was lost, in fact I was almost embarrassed to play through the whole thing. The missons were also rubbish and it was one of the least fun singleplayer experiences I have had in a RTS game, i think it was due to how little i could get into the story.

All in all I can understand why Russian people hate the game and I dont blame them as its propaganda and its actually really bad from a gaming perspective also.

The aim of the german invasion was not to anihilate russians. How comes that the french, danes, norvegians, were not anihilated?
The next time you'll hear Obama talking about pre-emptive attacks remember that the germans did that for the first time in history against the soviets. The comunists were about to "liberate" Europe from the evil capitalists and Germany was forced to attack first. Some say that the communists manipulated Hitler giving him free hand to defeat his capitalist brothers and after that the communists will come as liberators.

Although the campaign was not that great, it has some truth. Russians should leave their pride for a second and remember that the biggest enemy was within the borders in the person of Stalin. The bolshevics killed more russians(during peace time) than the wehrmacht.

And yes during the first year of the war, russians soldiers were deserting like crazy. They didn't knew for what they are fighting, the commisars were worse than the nazis, but after that the "Motherland" entered the equation and suddenly they had something to really fight and die for.

relic really needs to consider remaking their single player campaign, people too often misinterpret relic's intentions, bad writing and their lackluster single player.


but they won't because the damage is already done and remaking it won't boost sales, so to a company's eyes it would be a waste of resources, even though it is the right thing.

what will it take to make relic change their singleplayer campaign, because i don't think they're looking at it anymore.

Can we look at the bright side? Allies won and Nazis lost =) The victor writes the History. And soviets won the war, they got a pic to prove they were first in Berlin =))

The aim of the german invasion was not to anihilate russians. How comes that the french, danes, norvegians, were not anihilated?

So you want to say that German soldiers who were talking about it in documentaries are lying?

The next time you'll hear Obama talking about pre-emptive attacks remember that the germans did that for the first time in history against the soviets. The comunists were about to "liberate" Europe from the evil capitalists and Germany was forced to attack first.

Did you just tried to justify Hitlers intentions about the invasion to Russia?

this comes to mind.

that said this thread is gonna get ugly.

Did you just tried to justify Hitlers intentions about the invasion to Russia?

Hitler rose to power particularly on an anti-communist billet.
Infact thats the primary reason he was appointed Chancellor.

Its not about "justifying" it, simply stating one of the primary reasons why the East Campaign was so important to the Nazis.

Hitler rose to power particularly on an anti-communist billet.
Infact thats the primary reason he was appointed Chancellor.

Its not about "justifying" it, simply stating one of the primary reasons why the East Campaign was so important to the Nazis.

Then I miss-read, sorry. Not bothered with another Sov vs Nazis fandois fight =)

I think what you're saying here is quite typical for all those of you non-russian who question Relics version of the Red Army.

Basically you have no beef with any russian. You may even know and like some. You side with them and see no reason to offend them.

That's a natural and good attitude towards other humans. I like that.

But you must try to divide your relation to present russians from your attitude to the russian history. Understand that condeming stalinism is not an attack on your russian friends (unless they belong to the minority of present stalinists ofc.).

It's exactly the same as with germans. Noone fears or hates germans today, but it doesn't stop us from condeming holocaust and make movies and games about nazism during WW2.

It's the same thing with the SU.

Im not saying that Relic should rewrite history out of fear of hurting anyone, but I think it was a wasted oportunity, and that the game could have had a lot of success in Russia if they had chosen an approach more similair to vCOH.

So you want to say that German soldiers who were talking about it in documentaries are lying?


Did you just tried to justify Hitlers intentions about the invasion to Russia?

what are the german soldiers talking in documentaries?

No sane person invades Russia without winter clothes, period. Unless your about to be attacked first.
The definition to pre-emptive strike - a surprise attack that is launched in order to prevent the enemy from doing it to you.

By the beginning of the Second World War, the Soviet Union had more than one million well-trained paratroopers. More than all the countries combined. But wait, anybody knows that you don't train 1 million paras to defend. I bet they didn't tell you that in documentaries lolz.