So, I missed the whole "why russians hate coh2" thing...

esky never put a trollface as a profile picture people will never take you seriously. and asume you are bashing them.

now i havent read this tread but if you say Coh2 campaing is bad then i agree.

if you say it was good. i disagree.

I think even if they tried so, they did a piss poor job. The reason for the burning in CoD World at War is for the atrocities at Stalingrad, clearly shown in the game. So as a player, you have a certain "justified vengeance" feeling. Okay, it is bad and inhumane, but at least you saw the reason why they did it. World at War did a better job in balancing the war crimes. It showed both sides.

My point exactly.

That analogy doesn't make sense, because the deeds of one individual would never even be considered as a representation of a whole organization or group. We as human beings here and now can see today pedophiles who are also priests, but no one is assuming that the those priests are who and what the Catholic Church compose solely of. That's ridiculous!

On top of this, no where does it even remotely state within the campaign that the deeds of the corrupt are a representation of the entire Russian people. Especially since we see other Russians who are completely fine reasonable people in the very same campaign.

Try again.

I'm not saying that you or me (independent third-parties) will necessarily take it at face value, but pretend you are a member of that organization being portrayed and you should be able to see why it is offensive. If you can't, I suggest you take some lessons in PR.

Plus, you have to realize that there are a lot of people who do take it at face value, even if you don't.

....

If you missed those threads, don't take it personal because you are not alone. The majority of the discussion on the forums just accepted the allegations flatly and spent all their energy discussing if Relic should portray an unhistorical image that was so unfavourable to the russians or not. Almost noone cared to discuss IF that was actually what Relic had done.
...

once again, well said

Please kids....don't subscribe to the neo-nationalistic, russian propaganda.

I'm probably twice as old (or more) than most of you. And I studied this time of russian history a lot.

Believe me: russian history is full of hurt, injustice, genocide and senseless actions.

What Relic tries to tell is by no means exaggerated, but is in fact a bleak version of what stalinism really was. Even if they have a range of facts wrong.

I hope none of you would seriosuly deny the nazi holocaust? Neither should you deny the stalinist terror.

VCoH didnt present attrocities, CoH2 did.
So what.

I think even if they tried so, they did a piss poor job. The reason for the burning in CoD World at War is for the atrocities at Stalingrad, clearly shown in the game. So as a player, you have a certain "justified vengeance" feeling. Okay, it is bad and inhumane, but at least you saw the reason why they did it. World at War did a better job in balancing the war crimes. It showed both sides.

I think they did a nice job in CoD:WaW. They didn't show any war crimes by the Germans, but they made a lot of references to the crimes via dialogue. Which was enough to justify the Russian crimes in that game.

The Russians themselves also were passionate about defeating the Germans, unlike in this game. Just compare the last missions of CoD:WaW and this game. In CoD, you raised the flag on the Reigstag to claim final victory over the nation that burned and raped your country. In this game, it's portrayed as a senseless loss of lives for a pretty picture.

In CoD, you follow a group of soldiers who will stop at nothing to clear the fascist invaders out of their motherland. You can see them commit war crimes, you can feel their hatred and their desire for vengeance. You can also understand their feelings because the nazi war crimes are referenced throughout the game.

In This game however, only your commanding officer and the commissar show any interest in defeating the Germans. All other characters seem more interested in not fighting at all, despite the fact that the Germans have killed millions of their people and burned half their country. Instead of an inspiring speech before entering Stalingrad, we get a sarcastic remark about the no-retreat policy. I'm not even remotely Russian, but it bothered me. I mean really, was it that hard to give a speech like "Today we drive the murderous fascist pigs out of our city!" or something?

In short, here is the feeling I got from both games:
CoD:WaW = The Fascists are ruthless, they have burned our country, killed millions. You MUST stop them, reclaim your motherland, drive the murderous cowards back and destroy them, whatever the costs!
CoH2 = We have been invaded! Use whatever means necessary to drive the invaders back! Oh what's that? You don't care? Well, here is a bullet in the back! Now go and do unspeakable things before I shoot you again.

Linking someone's actions having fun (which is what you should be doing when you're gaming) to a political statement he's making seriously, and then going ad hominem all over it.

My definition of having fun is not destroying my team mate's base, shouting all kinds of racial slurs and displaying a general lack of respect for other players. These things might be fun when you are of a very young age, but for a grown man such as Esky it is rather repulsive.

Some people in this thread need to get a job.

Soviet warcrimes where every bit as heinous, widespread and terrible as the Nazis where.

Not only in terms of what happened on the front and occupied territories, but also what was happening domestically before, during and after the wa, both in Nazi Germany, and in Soviet Russia.

Soviets where immune to prosecution from international tribunals due to winner status, and Stalin categorically ordered destruction of all evidence of Soviet warcrimes. There where a handful of domestic show trials, and that was it. Soviet warcrime was expunged from history

The Nazi scourge was wiped out. One of the central reasons they fought all the way until Hitlers bunker, was they knew there would be no mercy once the extent of the Holocaust was unearthed and exposed (literally, in many cases, from exhumation of mass graves).

Unfortunately the Soviet scourge continued unabated for another 60 years across the entirety of Eastern Europe and the USSRs satellite states.

The first game didnt focus on attrocities, the second game did.
Which is the truer format? The second. Is that a bad thing? No.
Does that discount Nazi attrocities? No. Does that unfairly present Soviet attrocities? No.
The fact the first games storyline did not focus on attrocities in no way discounts the validity of the second games depiction of attrocities.

One of the most unforgiveable and ridiculous claims I hear, is that revenge and anger somehow justified Soviet warcrimes. That they are somehow "understandable" or ok, cos Germany was the initial aggressor. No, it does not.
Historically, Hitler and Stalin had already divided Poland. Both states where active aggressors in terms of Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union had at this point already attacked and occupied the Baltic states, even as Nazi Germany was attacking and occupying Western Europe.

The Soviet Union was an AGRESSOR in the war, even before one German soldier stepped foot on Soviet soil.

"The Baltic states,[6][7] the United States[8][9] and its courts of law,[10] the European Parliament,[11][12][13] the European Court of Human Rights[14] and the United Nations Human Rights Council[15] have all stated that these three countries were invaded, occupied and illegally incorporated into the Soviet Union under provisions[16] of the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, first by the Soviet Union, then by Nazi Germany from 1941 to 1944, and again by the Soviet Union from 1944 to 1991.[17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24] This policy of non-recognition has given rise to the principle of legal continuity, which holds that de jure, or as a matter of law, the Baltic states had remained independent states under illegal occupation throughout the period from 1940 to 1991.[25][26][27]"
- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states

Sorry, but the Soviet record is as atleast as terrible as the Nazi one.
Blaming a PC game, does nothing to change that.

@Nullist, I doubt anyone here was ever doubting the severity of any war crimes on the Eastern front.

What people are thinking however, that the consistency of this appearing in almost every mission makes the cause on the Eastern Front from the Russian point of view almost completely exaggerated - where every partisan got shot in the back for instance.

That, to any non-biased person, seems to be the main problem with the story as depicted by COH2.

Most of the missions are just standard issue RTS missions.

The dramatic cutscene sequences in between follow the general storyline interpreted from that guys memoirs.

If someone has issue with the historical validity or truthfulness of the guys firsthand, primary source recounting of events, they can take it up with that, not Relics depiction of events as described in those writings.

They are nonetheless a primary, firsthand historical source of his experiences in the war, and as such, valid historical reference for depiction of that.

The game has "Company of Heroes" in its franchise for fucks sake, not "Game of Warcrimes" sheesh.

The protagonists are heroes.

However instead of their heroics being depicted in terms of how many enemies they killed, their heroism is portrayed in terms of the decisions they made in a war filled with attrocities, even when that has fatal consequences for themselves.

The unfortunate truth, on all sides, is that most people "just went along with it". Even now, if all of us where put into the same situation, most of us here, would "just go along with it" and be complicit with those attrocities. Only a few would have the balls to do the "right" thing, as do the protagonists of the story.

The Soviet union did a lot of terrible things and was a horrible regime in many ways, no doubt.

As I see it, there are two main issues with the storyline.
1: You are repeatedly told during cutscenes and dialogue that everything you do is a waste, and that your victories are meaningless. That doesnt give me any further motivation to play the not-so-interesting campaign.

2: While the Soviet union did a lot of horrible things, focusing as much on those as the game does was guaranteed to chase away a lot of russian players, simply because its not fun to be told that your history sucks, over and over againg, and russians seems to have a hard time accepting theire history. Again, vCOH handled this excelently by focusing on the story of the soldiers.

Adding to point 2: I think its hard to make a singleplayercampagin, from the Soviet commanders point of view, that tries to have a certain degree of realism and historical accuracy, while still keeping it fun. Playing a side that is based on supperior numbers and expendability will always be less fun than playing the tacticly and skillwise better army.

focusing as much on those as the game does was guaranteed to chase away a lot of russian players

Come to think about it, this sounds like a plan!

Come to think about it, this sounds like a plan!

A game only celebrating and glorifying the victories of the Red Army would probably have sold better. True.

Thing is though, that this period of history is no prouder for Russians than it is for Germans.
Its a shameful, terrible period of the most outrageous inhumanity the world has ever seen, for both nations.
Both for war attrocities on the frontline and occupied territories, as well as for domestic issues.

Both where intrinsically evil and ideological states and that unfortuntately reflected on what they did both in war, as well as back at home.

There was no "liberation" of Eastern Europe, as there was for Western Europe.
Instead, there was 60 years behind the Iron Curtain.

The Soviet Union, was, by all accounts as "evil" a state as was Nazi Germany.

I agree that, in retrospect, vCoH should have had AS critical and condemning a storyline for Germans as CoH2 has for the Soviets. But that is a "good" development in Coh2.

Wargames really should pay more attention to the human cost of war, rather than just glorifying war itself.
Especially in games that dont just simulate specific battles, but which have a personal narrative.
Ironically, a person playing wargames dehumanises his forces. Thats understandable, they are just virtual and pixels on a screen. And doubly ironically, that is exactly how many IRL military commanders then, and now, have to think. Real people are reduced to simple numbers, statistics, wins and losses.

As I stated earlier, in the Close Combat series, each soldier had a NAME. Ive never confirmed whether those names are actually referenced from the actual guys in those units that game historically represents. But can you see the huge difference? Suddenly that model, that collection of pixels, is a real historical character, who might have greatgrand children alive today, and if you sacrifice the unit, you basically willfully killed off their greatgrandfather!

I agree the storyline in CoH2, as far as I have played it, seems to string attrocity after injustice together in a continuous chain that becomes almost unbearable in terms of "HOW CAN THISNHAVE BEEN SANE OR ALLOWED TO HAPPEN", but it is based atleast losely on one guys real experiences, or rather, his recounting off them.

Personally, I find the protagonists choices heroic and remarkable. It helps me, even as someone whos family suffered from Soviet action with Finland, in a small way, reconcile what happened, by reminding me that it was ultimately the State and the general unfortunate preponderance of assholes in the world, then and now, who committed those crimes. But, despite that, there where heroes and people od real moral fortitude and the courage to do the right thing, even among the Soviets.

I think the storyline is a celebration and salute to those Soviets who despite all the horror and injustice, still tried to make the "right" choices, and maintain some semblance of value for human life. It is actually a dishonor to those men and women, for someone to focus on the attrocities, which happened, everywhere, on all sides, rather than on the real hard choices some people made under those impossible circumstances. TLDR: This isnt about whether those attrocities happened or not, or whether they should be depicted or not, this is all about what some people DID to try and prevent them or alteast to refuse to participate in them. If there had been more such heroes, on all sides, WWIi in all its horrors, might not have been quite as terrible. But the unfortunate fact is, that even now, today, if faced with the same, how many would have the courage to do as the protagonist and those he called friends would do?

Would you?

That makes the people the CoH2 storyline depicts, heroes, in my eyes. Goddamn, wish I had some vodka right now after writing this to salute the untold memory of those in the Red Army for what such persons must have sacrificed in such inhumane conditions, to remain humane.

There is a series of podcasts where a historian named Dan Carlin really digs into the human story of the Ostfront.

Look for a series called Hardcore History: Ghosts of the Ostfront.

In it, he does a good job of not just explaining, but really presenting the human side of on the war on the Eastern Front, and how atrocities on both sides started piling up, both against their enemies and their own soldiers.

He also does a good job of showing just how ridiculously stupid the Soviet organization as a whole was. It's easy enough to say it's capitalist propaganda, but you need to remember that the Soviet Union had a way better propaganda machine going on, and it was much easier for them to erase history to fit their idea of a great patriotic war.

Now, did CoH2 represent that equally? I actually have not played the campaign to find out as I jump straight into MP for these games. But it sounds like they go a bit too heavy into the soviet situations, without focusing on the soldiers' humanity, and without showing things like how desperate it was, and why such stupid things happened.

2: While the Soviet union did a lot of horrible things, focusing as much on those as the game does was guaranteed to chase away a lot of russian players, simply because its not fun to be told that your history sucks, over and over againg, and russians seems to have a hard time accepting theire history.

I think what you're saying here is quite typical for all those of you non-russian who question Relics version of the Red Army.

Basically you have no beef with any russian. You may even know and like some. You side with them and see no reason to offend them.

That's a natural and good attitude towards other humans. I like that.

But you must try to divide your relation to present russians from your attitude to the russian history. Understand that condeming stalinism is not an attack on your russian friends (unless they belong to the minority of present stalinists ofc.).

It's exactly the same as with germans. Noone fears or hates germans today, but it doesn't stop us from condeming holocaust and make movies and games about nazism during WW2.

It's the same thing with the SU.

I think what you're saying here is quite typical for all those of you non-russian who question Relics version of the Red Army.

Basically you have no beef with any russian. You may even know and like some. You side with them and see no reason to offend them.

That's a natural and good attitude towards other humans. I like that.

But you must try to divide your relation to present russians from your attitude to the russian history. Understand that condeming stalinism is not an attack on your russian friends (unless they belong to the minority of present stalinists ofc.).

It's exactly the same as with germans. Noone fears or hates germans today, but it doesn't stop us from condeming holocaust and make movies and games about nazism during WW2.

It's the same thing with the SU.

I don't feel it's the job of an RTS to lecture me about the ills of the soviet union, especially when faced with the nazis in a fight for the country's survival, let alone the regime's.

Please, take your cold war nonsense and piss off. We know Stalin was bad, even worse than hitler, we know the soviets did terrible things, but in the CONTEXT of this game, as in, the struggle to remove an occupying invader who's sole desire is wiping you from the planet, I think a little outrage from russians is quite well placed given the inordinate amount of nonsense in the single player. Killing surrendering soldiers? Fine. Killing german civilians or have rape and pillage scenes? Sure, w/e, but to make it the MAIN theme of the entire single player that russians are;

1.) Cowards
2.) Criminals
3.) Murderers that want to lose the war by killing friendlies all day

or even dumber that

4.) Russians just died for pictures and propaganda instead of, say, idk, repelling an enemy invasion....

This all throughout the campaign, not just a single mission or too, that's overboard and nonsensical, unrealistic, and unbefitting CoH and any historical RTS focused on BATTLE.