SNF

It looks like the game has stabilized at around 4k players, not dropping like a stone as some may claim. Nevertheless, who can blame anyone moving on with the kind of negativity that has been around since release of the first infamous Commanders in September. Actually I don`t think I`v ever witnessed a fan-forum with so few fan-boys.. and where you get instantly bashed for pretty much any positive statements you make regarding the game.

No doubt they have heard the community`s feedback by now and i dont think it is constructive to keep hammering them with the same p2w arguments over and over. It is up to Sega/Relic now to find a way out of this vicious circle they got them self into. And even if they should keep the DLC Commander model of today, it is ways to make it all still work out ok with things like the Commander rework suggestion posted in these forums. I still belive it is the failed business model and its impact on the game which is the main issue and thankfully not the game itself so this is all things that can be changed. All could potentially go from bad back to good in one patch!

I really belive it is the coolest RTS game out there, both to play and to watch. And as long as we have the likes of SNF and the other tourney providers + casters, aswell of the great guys behind this site, it will always be an interest for the game. Cheers!

Well my original post has had 90% of the content been accidentally deleted by a CoH2.org admin who notified me. I will repeat what I remember stated again and this time be much to the point.

This is the current situation with CoH2 for me. There is now an established player base which seems to be trending in decline. An array of reasons are listed for this including core game design, user interface, commanders, global upgrades, bugs, pathing, cover system, unit/tech structures and the list could go on. For me you the general impression I receive from people who leave the game recently is due to commanders and balance. I am not speaking of the linear nature of commanders but simply new DLC commanders which come out and easily exploited for a money price. This is not a commander issue, but one of a balance issue. Now balance is one region where the competitive community of CoH1 and CoH2 can deeply improve the game, but where the hell are they? No where to be seen.

• CoH1 competitive community = Complain about core game mechanics but no longer actively play the unless monetary incentive is provided. Provide no balance feedback due to not actively playing the game. The fire is left to burn.
  
• CoH2 competitive community = Exploit imbalances to its maximum extent. This breeds the loss of people within the game. The fuel is added to the fire.
  

I would love to know how many of the CoH1 competitive community that criticize the game would play a respectable number of games with each influential patch that steers it closer to that vCoH play style. Many from this era are still basing decisions off alpha/beta opinions and have not played the game enough to give it a solid chance later down the timeline. If you all want a competitive game why don't you work at the basis of it all and start by balancing CoH2 rather than being so narrowminded and slowing its progress by doing nothing. CoH2 still retains many features of CoH1 and if it becomes just as balanced as CoH1, would you still not play it?

CoH2 competitive community are no better. I heard a rumour (don't know if it is true) that Relic sent out beta test server invites to many players positioned high on the leader boards, yet these people barely contribute. Rather a small group of mid-level players are providing the majority of feedback and playing games directly with Relic devs. These beta invites to my knowledge have been used nothing more than a testing ground for the competitive community to immediately exploit imbalances once they hit the live version. How many of you tried to actively prevent the latest Soviet Industry Tactics or Elite Troops doctrine before it released at the live version?

Now I am no CoH1 competitive player nor the best at CoH2, but I think I have done a hell of a lot more for improving the balance of this game than what so many others of this competitive league have. I am so happy that I finally am recognized by Relic and received a beta server invite. At least I'll have a better chance to improve the game, unlike others who decide to sit back and do nothing or say nothing.

How many of the people who returned will leave once SNF5 is finished? I would love to see them stay but I doubt they will. I've had an anger against the competitive communities for quite some time now and had to get this off my mind. If it offends anyone, well so be it.

I know a lot of stuff is hidden behind closed doors, but I still feel the competitive communities from both CoH1 but mainly CoH2 could do so much more for balance and improving a sector I know we can. I to feel I should have been given access to that closed forum Budwise if it would of made my statements been recognized. Sort of feels like a wasted effort if my voice is constantly lost in unread thread somewhere, but my chins still up. I'll try fix the part of the problem which Relic will actually recognize community input.

Except it isn't a balance issue, it's a design issue. Balance can be fixed, given the proper circumstances. Problem is, balance can't be fixed when Relic tries to sell 4 new commanders every month, and make those commanders marketable.

Regardless, it's not balance that I care about, even if I don't think balance is achievable with so many large changes being made so frequently. I care about the fact that the base game is so simplistic, and commanders are the only way that Relic is adding depth. CoH2 is a game of tactics with very little in the way of strategic depth. That's the main reason I don't play, and many others from vCoH don't play.

We don't just want another vCoH either. What we do want, however, is a game that will remain challenging and engaging in 5 years, and competitive as a result. I feel very strongly that the current model Relic is following for CoH2 simply isn't sustainable; I'm of the opinion that people want strategy in their strategy games, not simply tactics. I know I definitely do, and I don't think I'm alone, though there are obviously people who disagree.

I want CoH2 to succeed, but it just doesn't engage me. The reason is design, not balance. You could argue that I am alone, but I think the fact that CoH2 averages less players daily than vCoH did before CoH2's launch speaks volumes about the number of people who don't like the direction taken with CoH2. I'm hopeful that things can be changed, and improved, but the current path being taken is not promising.

And don't blame the community. You have no idea what kind of work has been done behind the scenes in an attempt to make this game the best it can be. If you knew the time and effort vCoH players put into CoH2 before (and in lesser numbers after) Relic flipped us the bird and released gameplay-changing commanders after stating that DLC would have no in-game impact, I guarantee your post would look a lot different. Don't blame the CoH2 community either. If you play competitively, you play to win, which means exploiting anything available to you within the constraints of the game if it gives you an advantage. It's the fault of the developers, not the fault of players, just like it's not the fault of players if they decide that the game is not engaging enough to keep them playing after the incentive of monetary compensation goes away.

Except it isn't a balance issue, it's a design issue. Balance can be fixed, given the proper circumstances. Problem is, balance can't be fixed when Relic tries to sell 4 new commanders every month, and make those commanders marketable.

Regardless, it's not balance that I care about, even if I don't think balance is achievable with so many large changes being made so frequently. I care about the fact that the base game is so simplistic, and commanders are the only way that Relic is adding depth. CoH2 is a game of tactics with very little in the way of strategic depth. That's the main reason I don't play, and many others from vCoH don't play.

We don't just want another vCoH either. What we do want, however, is a game that will remain challenging and engaging in 5 years, and competitive as a result. I feel very strongly that the current model Relic is following for CoH2 simply isn't sustainable; I'm of the opinion that people want strategy in their strategy games, not simply tactics. I know I definitely do, and I don't think I'm alone, though there are obviously people who disagree.

I want CoH2 to succeed, but it just doesn't engage me. The reason is design, not balance. You could argue that I am alone, but I think the fact that CoH2 averages less players daily than vCoH did before CoH2's launch speaks volumes about the number of people who don't like the direction taken with CoH2. I'm hopeful that things can be changed, and improved, but the current path being taken is not promising.

Sad to read this but you're right...

Yup balance is not the issue in COH2. Bad business model / bad gamedesign (resulting in a lack of strategical dept in the game --> boring games (no rewards for playing better then your opponent) and lack of 2013 RTS game features are the biggest problems for COH2. Drastic changes need to be made in order to save the game, but I'm not sure if we're gonna see it

I couldn't agree more with what Inverse said.

Except it isn't a balance issue, it's a design issue. Balance can be fixed, given the proper circumstances. Problem is, balance can't be fixed when Relic tries to sell 4 new commanders every month, and make those commanders marketable.

Regardless, it's not balance that I care about, even if I don't think balance is achievable with so many large changes being made so frequently. I care about the fact that the base game is so simplistic, and commanders are the only way that Relic is adding depth. CoH2 is a game of tactics with very little in the way of strategic depth. That's the main reason I don't play, and many others from vCoH don't play.

We don't just want another vCoH either. What we do want, however, is a game that will remain challenging and engaging in 5 years, and competitive as a result. I feel very strongly that the current model Relic is following for CoH2 simply isn't sustainable; I'm of the opinion that people want strategy in their strategy games, not simply tactics. I know I definitely do, and I don't think I'm alone, though there are obviously people who disagree.

I want CoH2 to succeed, but it just doesn't engage me. The reason is design, not balance. You could argue that I am alone, but I think the fact that CoH2 averages less players daily than vCoH did before CoH2's launch speaks volumes about the number of people who don't like the direction taken with CoH2. I'm hopeful that things can be changed, and improved, but the current path being taken is not promising.

And don't blame the community. You have no idea what kind of work has been done behind the scenes in an attempt to make this game the best it can be. If you knew the time and effort vCoH players put into CoH2 before (and in lesser numbers after) Relic flipped us the bird and released gameplay-changing commanders after stating that DLC would have no in-game impact, I guarantee your post would look a lot different. Don't blame the CoH2 community either. If you play competitively, you play to win, which means exploiting anything available to you within the constraints of the game if it gives you an advantage. It's the fault of the developers, not the fault of players, just like it's not the fault of players if they decide that the game is not engaging enough to keep them playing after the incentive of monetary compensation goes away.

+1

+1

Yup balance is not the issue in COH2. Bad business model / bad gamedesign (resulting in a lack of strategical dept in the game --> boring games (no rewards for playing better then your opponent) and lack of 2013 RTS game features are the biggest problems for COH2. Drastic changes need to be made in order to save the game, but I'm not sure if we're gonna see it

We wont see them, in order for those changes to take effect they have to do the game all over again almost from scratch. It`s sad people who have no idea how games are done and what effort is put behind the scenes believe that it is so easy to basically re-do the game.

Fact is the game is already done.... and there is 2 options it is either gonna succeed as it is or die.
In order for them to re design the game they will have to shut it down or try to redesign it in parallel with the current version ( meaning they will work on 2 games at the same time) <- this takes resources which Relic doesn`t have and will never have.

And don't blame the community. You have no idea what kind of work has been done behind the scenes in an attempt to make this game the best it can be. If you knew the time and effort vCoH players put into CoH2 before (and in lesser numbers after) Relic flipped us the bird and released gameplay-changing commanders after stating that DLC would have no in-game impact, I guarantee your post would look a lot different.

With all due respect, but what work are you referring to? If work is put into the actual game (not this website or casting shows, which are both great ofcourse ) by community members, the effectiveness seems quite low. This would suggest the "behind the scenes" approach is probably not working as the remaining part of the community consistently has to hear how involved some people are in developing the game, yet sees no measurable results.

With all due respect, but what work are you referring to? If work is put into the actual game (not this website or casting shows, which are both great ofcourse ) by community members, the effectiveness seems quite low. This would suggest the "behind the scenes" approach is probably not working as the remaining part of the community consistently has to hear how involved some people are in developing the game, yet sees no measurable results.

Because Relic/Sega fcking ignores them.....
And if you haven`t noticed the currently popular games are dumped down in order to increase VOLUME of users this is what I believed Relic tried to do ( because we all know that CoH2 is easier to comprehend than VCoH) but failed at it by providing OP DLC`s which are kinda too expensive...

We wont see them, in order for those changes to take effect they have to do the game all over again almost from scratch. It`s sad people who have no idea how games are done and what effort is put behind the scenes believe that it is so easy to basically re-do the game.

Fact is the game is already done.... and there is 2 options it is either gonna succeed as it is or die.
In order for them to re design the game they will have to shut it down or try to redesign it in parallel with the current version ( meaning they will work on 2 games at the same time) <- this takes resources which Relic doesn`t have and will never have.

Yep, that's the main problem. The game was designed around this model.

With all due respect, but what work are you referring to? If work is put into the actual game (not this website or casting shows, which are both great ofcourse ) by community members, the effectiveness seems quite low. This would suggest the "behind the scenes" approach is probably not working as the remaining part of the community consistently has to hear how involved some people are in developing the game, yet sees no measurable results.

We have been giving our feedback on balance/design/features in private since Alpha, much like we did for vCoH's 2.602 patch. On issues of balance during the beta, it was a great success; Peter is a great guy, and really smart, and he knows what he's doing. But Peter has no influence on the DLC commanders until after they've been put in the game (my understanding at least), and the developers on the commander team have not participated in any discussions. Stefan Haines is the one responsible for the DLC commanders, and he has no desire to interact with the competitive community. We can talk all we want, it won't make a difference if nobody is listening.

Stefan Haines it's the reason why al my friends stopped playing

Stefan Haines is the one responsible for the DLC commanders, and he has no desire to interact with the competitive community.

All my grrrr's.

We have been giving our feedback on balance/design/features in private since Alpha, much like we did for vCoH's 2.602 patch. On issues of balance during the beta, it was a great success; Peter is a great guy, and really smart, and he knows what he's doing. But Peter has no influence on the DLC commanders until after they've been put in the game (my understanding at least), and the developers on the commander team have not participated in any discussions. Stefan Haines is the one responsible for the DLC commanders, and he has no desire to interact with the competitive community. We can talk all we want, it won't make a difference if nobody is listening.

I am aware of the difficulties with seperate Relic divisions. However, the community does not know what advice is being given in private. I have to side with Stephenn, when the community members who provide private feedback seem to not play the game, in order to give specific feedback to the balance developers.

And as you stated, if specific feedback is given, nobody is listening. This is why the community as a whole is needed instead of a handful oldschool players that do not play the game anymore, as they seem to have no effect on the balance developers, even though they flaunt being on first name basis with them.

I think there is plenty of room for more strategic depth that your talking about without changing the entire game as a whole. As suggesting to redo the entire game isn't a solution they can do even if they wanted to.

and to be honest alot of this private "feedback" that ive seen is simply bullying and intimidation.

Yep, that's the main problem. The game was designed around this model.

Funny cause I have always been taught to design the model for the game, not the game for a model.

As suggesting to redo the entire game isn't a solution they can do even if they wanted to.

I think I pointed out somewhere the word "almost" if I did not then I apologize.
We already know what you mean that its not possible and thats what we state at the moment.
Major flaw of the game is the linear commanders in my opinion and sadly this will not change since as Inverse stated the game was designed around this idea and not the other way around.

I am aware of the difficulties with seperate Relic divisions. However, the community does not know what advice is being given in private. I have to side with Stephenn, when the community members who provide private feedback seem to not play the game, in order to give specific feedback to the balance developers.

And as you stated, if specific feedback is given, nobody is listening. This is why the community as a whole is needed instead of a handful oldschool players that do not play the game anymore, as they seem to have no effect on the balance developers, even though they flaunt being on first name basis with them.

I don't see why we can't have both. There are plenty of avenues available for the community to voice its opinions. Those private discussions made 2.602 the most balanced patch vCoH ever got, and made the CoH2 beta exponentially better. It terms of balance it has been an overwhelming success.

But like I said, balance isn't the problem, it's design, and the people responsible for that design have shown zero interest in interacting with the community.

Stefan Haines You Are the reason for all this kaos !!!

I don't see why we can't have both. There are plenty of avenues available for the community to voice its opinions.

Exactly. This is why the CoH2 community needs self reflection. The majority of the current top competitive players are not vocal at all, even though they have the possibility to do so, whereas the oldschool CoH1 players that provide private feedback do not play the game enough to implicitly be taken serious enough by developers.

For an average player, such as myself, it is frustrating to see that these existing relationships between valued community members and game developers do not lead to the neccesary changes. This is why public pressure is a better tool to make these changes to CoH2 happen.