Commander Overlap a serious problem

nm got notthing.

No developer reaction ?!

No developer reaction ?!

Of course not. Better stay silent than say community the bad news

yeah I was wondering, because there are "some" response in other threads.

How about the lack of overlap? Nobody stands up for the little guy?

I want more free doctrines with the elephant in

I'm pointing at whoever are the decision makers at the top who decided it was okay to overlap abilities, some up to five times. The people at the top need to get a grip on this and understand this is a serious problem, and more importantly, that it can and should be fixed.

This is what worries me the most. We don't even know who's even got the authority to make these decisions. A good order of business I guess would be to find out who actually has creative design control and take a case as a community to him/her/them. Accountability is a very big deal and we (as a concerned community) should use it to make ourselves heard.

You can't just go to X perosn and ask them to change it though, even if he does have the authority. People make mistakes, or miss a mark, too. Game Development in many cases is a matter of trial and error, that's what beta testing is for.

The game needs these changes, sure, but it also needs a better and tighter release policy...

Relic shouldn't be afraid to toss ideas out if they don't work(before release). It feels as though they release anything that came to mind. Stuff like Soviet Industry, shouldn't have left the beta stage in its current form.

You can't just go to X perosn and ask them to change it though, even if he does have the authority. People make mistakes, or miss a mark, too. Game Development in many cases is a matter of trial and error, that's what beta testing is for.

The game needs these changes, sure, but it also needs a better and tighter release policy...

Relic shouldn't be afraid to toss ideas out if they don't work(before release). It feels as though they release anything that came to mind. Stuff like Soviet Industry, shouldn't have left the beta stage in its current form.

With all due respect, the beta testing phase isn't the problem. (a lot of stuff slips through it, but that is another story)

That abilities like Soviet industry even make it to that stage is the real problem. Where's the research that's informing these design choices? you cant solve a problem without doing research and research informs your deliverables.

I'm not arguing to go on a witchhunt to find who gave the green light on the tiger ace but what I am arguing is that a person from relic who has those creative authorities should be directly interacting with the community, at least once a month to do some research on what are the most pressing matters for the game.

Its not as though they couldn't just add an extra half hour to the monthly stream after Brad plays his friends. The community manager is fine, no problems with that but any feedback we give (as a community) still has to go through at least one other person. This communication should be direct IMO. If I was designing this game I'd want to be in as close communication with the online community as I could.

The choice system is very good but it would only create more overlapping abilities (I don't see that as a problem myself) because you added another ability to the tree.
Plus how would you unlock the other side of the tree? On the right side you ended with 5cps, does this mean you need to wait 4cps to unlock the howitzer? Make it when you select an ability from either side you every ability gets one cp cheaper.

This was exactly what I was trying to figure out, but a solution occurred to me.

I think the most elegant way to do this is to retain the collective unlock that occurs now. This way 1 cp and 2 cp abilities won't unlock later than they should. . The way to pair that with White-Flash's suggestion is to allow the player to branch off right or left after the first 2 ability picks. If he goes right, accumulated points do not unlock objects on the left. Only points that accumulate after the very last ability on the right side is unlocked count towards unlocking the abilities in the left tree. The point accumulation still functions the same going forward. If you have a 3 cost ability and a 5 cost ability in the left fork, both abilities unlock by 5 points total, the 3 cost unlocking first.

If abilities on both trees are very expensive, then it could take up to 12 cps to unlock all abilities, which is probably fine, but if they are all cheap abilities, all of them can be unlocked at 8.

The only problem with this system is that there's no function for taking the low end abilities from both trees. Once you choose a branch, you stick with it til you've unlocked the branch.

Regarding Customized Trees:

I think the idea is doable, but it hardly makes your commander choice less confusing for your opponent. I think one solution to this would be to implement a way that both players can continue to look at commander load-outs of their opponent in-game. There's enough time in the early phase that being able to hover over enemy commander choices to see what their arsenal is, would be really handy, even with the current system.

Another problem is that I'm not sure how you would change the current DLC system over. Maybe credit people who have paid for commanders in an equal amount of product for the new DLC system, which would be individually bought abilities, and let them keep the commander illustrations, which players would then give a customized load-out.
If nothing else, it would open up another DLC window in that relic could literally sell avatars separately, and infinitely, or packaged with each individually added ability.


While I'm not sure customized commanders could or should be done, I did spend some time trying to cost every ability in the game, using a very simple valuation range from 3 to 5. Surprisingly, using that point system, and my current scoring(which is subject to change), I've been able to cost every commander in the game after adding up all abilities, anywhere from 19 to 21 points. That gives me some confidence that my methodology isn't so broken, but there are still some abilities I'm not familiar enough to make even a middling player's judgement on.

Given that White-Flash's model requires a 6th ability, I set the maximum points per customized commander to 24 points. those commanders that have already spent 21 points only have enough to buy a 6th, 3 cost ability.

I have as of yet to try to figure out mutually exclusive abilities, and I think that that is probably a must.

Russian Abilities, and theoretical Values

0-cost

Forward HQ - 5 / anti-personnel mine - 5 / Soviet Industry - 5 / D5-HK Heavy MG - 4

1-cost

shock troops - 4 / guards - 4 / 122mm mortar - 4 / Tank Traps - 3 / Partisans - 4

AT-Partisans- 4 / Hit-the-dirt- 3 / Radio Intercept - 5 / soviet Irregulars - 4 / repair station -3

M42 45 mm AT-Gun - 4

2-Cost

Conscript Assault Package - 5 / AT-Gun Ambush - 3 / Vehicle Detection - 3 / conscript Repair Kit - 3 / recon flight - 4

3-Cost

Marked Vehicle - 4 / Rapid Conscription - 3 / fear Prop - 3 / For Mother Russia - 3 / booby trap territory - 4

4-Cost

KV-1 - 4 / Vehicle Crew Repair - 3 / ML-20 Howitzer - 4 / KV8 - 5 / Incendiary Artillery - 4 /
Howitzer - 4 / t34/85 Upgrade - 4

5-Cost

Is-2 - 4 / ISU-152 - 4 / KV-2 - 4

6-cost

IL-2 Sturmovick - 5 / IL-2 bomb-strike - 5

Ostheer Abilities and Valuations

0-Cost

Troop Training - 5 / Assault Grens - 5 / Air-dropped Medical - 4 / Ostrouppen - 5

1-Cost

Stun Grenades - 3 / Panzer Tacticion - 4 / Mechanized Assault Grp – 4 /
Mech grenadier grp - 4 / Cargo Truck - 5 / Artillery Field Officer - 3 / Mortar HT - 4 / Trench - 3 / Defensive Fortifications - 3 / HT anti-tank mine - 3 / ambush - 3

2-Cost

Jaeger Light infantry Upgrade - 4 / Smoke bombs - 3 / Supply Drop Zone - 5 / redistribute Resources - 5

3-Cost

Stug III Assault gun - 4 / relief infantry - 3 / tactical Movement - 3 / spotting scope - 4 / hull down - 3 / straffing run - 5 / incendiary bombing run - 4

4- Cost

Light Artillery Barrage - 4 / LEFH 18 Artillery - 4 / Command Tank - 4 /
Pak 43 - 4

5- Cost

Tiger - 4 / fragmentation Bomb - 3 / Elephant - 4 / Stuka bombing Strike - 5

6-Cost

Stuka Close Air Support - 4 / railway Artillery - 5 / Sector Artillery - 5?

7-Cost

Tiger Ace - 5


Here are some no-holds-barred examples, not taking into account combo restrictions that are probably inevitable. I tried to make broken ones, but I'm sure people could do a better job of it.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Tiger 24 pts

1-stun grenades
!
2- Supply Drop
!
[----------------------------------]

3 - Relief Infantry_______________2- smoke bombs
5- Tiger________________________7 - Tiger Ace


In this next example, if the player goes right side, shock troops unlock at 2, marked target at 3. Partisans Unlock at 4 and vehicle detection at 5. Left-side first, shock troops unlock at 3, and marked target unlocks at 5.




Can’t Decide? Well then Don’t!__24pts

0-Radio Intercept
!
1-Guards
!
[-------------------------------------------]

1- AT Partisans_____________________1 - Shock Troops
2- Vehicle Detection________________3 - Marked Target





Ostrippen into Oswinden__24pts

0-Ostrouppen
!
0-Air-dropped medical
!
[-------------------------------------------]

1 - Cargo Truck____________________3- Relief Troops
4 - Command Tank___________________5-fragmentation bomb


Soviet Industry-PPSH__24pts

0-Soviet Industry
!
1- partisans
!
[-----------------------------------------------------]

2-conscript assault package_________________2- Recon Flight
3-fear propaganda__________________________3-conscript repair kit



Map Shmap-oh did I still get that p4 out in 10?__24pts

0 - Aasault Grens
!
1 - Cargo Truck
!
[-----------------------------------------]

2- supply drop_____________________1- ambush
3-Tactical Movement________________5-fragmentation bomb





Guards Motor Coordination __23pts *everything is unlocked by 8 cps

1-guards
!
1- mortar
!
[--------------------------------------------------]

3-Marked Target________________________4-boobie trap territory
4-Vehicle Crew Repair__________________4-t34/85 upgrade

I would love to see customisable trees but i doubt relic is going to implement them . 1st they ll be hampering their dlc sales , 2nd it will create lots of balance problems , 3rd it cant be dlc because it will be p2w since one has total freedom to customise histrategy while another one hasnt ( not that p2w issue is sth that is bothering them a lot )

sorry guys, don't think they will re-implement it
1) overlapping gives the illusion of
a) more diversity
b) more choice
2) overlapping allows more commanders to be sold as dlc
3) i guess it was intended to allow more depth as it allows more ability combinations, unfortunately abilities were either:
a) not balanced well.
b) players did not learn how to utilize some of them efficiently.
4) doctrinal units promote the sales of the dlc, as it is more tempting for the player to buy a unit rather then an ability
5) relic replaced the choice of ability path within a commander with a choice of a commander pre-game.

so in the end some commanders contain more useful abilities then others, therefor other commanders simply not being used at all in high level play.

so, imo the request to remove overlapping is not practical as relic will not do it for commercial reasons (1,2,4) and their initial vision of the game (reason 3,5).

we can only hope that relic will check which abilities are not being used and buff them to promote diversity in the game.

frankly i would suggest instead of choosing commanders before the game, have the player select 1 ability per slot out of 3 choices randomly presented to them out of their total ability pool while the map loads (meaning 1 1 CP ability then 1 2 CP ability etc...)
literally building a "deck" of abilities for the coming match
this concepts is a great success in online "cards" game, as in:
1) duelofchampions by ubisoft
2) Hearthstone by blizzard
and other "clones" of this genre
it will:
1) add some strategic randomness and excitement to the game (unlike RNG gods, which is tactical randomness)
2) give players something to do while the map loads
3) force players to adapt to different abilities and reduce the rinse and repeat feeling of the game
4) present the player with more diverse opponents as the opponent can't execute his rinse and repeat tactic every game

People are looking way too deep into this. The solution is very simple. Use the branching system I illustrated in page 1, and dont overlap any abilities with commanders. Its that simple, no customizing commanders, nothing fancy. Simplicity is important to making this possible.

Something simple, tactically deep (no overlap) and choice driven (choice tree) will be the elegant solution we are all looking for.

The more complicated people make this the less likely Relic will look into it. This thread is simply to gauge peoples interest in a new system along the lines of the one I laid out in post #1, which seems very very high. Thanks friends.

I highly doubt that relic will ever change their commander system. As some people said before this business model has been introduced for one reason only:

Money..
Money!
MONNNEEYYYY!!

They don't care about us, they don't care about balance and they will surely not react to this post because they know they cannot defend this concept.

+1 to the original idea. I, for one, don't mind if it messes with my bought commanders.