Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

Aye the explanations on the patch notes aren't always entirely correct. Sometimes the real reasons get lost in the sheer amount of changes that have to be talked about.

In this case it should indeed be fairly obvious that alpha damage against LVs was the primary goal (specifically to give PTRS Penals a chance to fight off the flamer 251) and not their performance against tanks. Although obviously that also got buffed a fair bit.

I find that hard to believe. If you really did, you would've noticed that the changes only nerfed the IL-2 rocket strafe's damage from 80-90% health to the rear of an Elefant to 70-80% on average (though more against the front armor), and I assume you wouldn't call this "drastically nerfed". The rockets have a high amount of deflection damage. The penetration nerf only took the edge off.

And in the new patch the b4 has the potential to deal more damage than live. A perfect scenario isn't a realistic scenario. For something you are going to have to combine with a 300mp 90fu sacrificial lamb there shouldn't be that much RNG.

"taking the edge off" is fine and all until the enemy limps away because RNG said your ass armour hits are all bounces and you threw away a tank for a little down time because you have nothing capable of following up as the roster is designed to rely on abilities instead of units to fight that specific unit.

Taking the edge off could be completed in a way that DOESN'T turn a reliable ability into a sacrifice and a dice roll. Reduce the damage if you feel it's overperforming but why nuke (and that IS what is happening) the penatration value. HELL if anything it should be guaranteed to pen, not left up to RNG if you need to follow up, after throwing away a tank, with an all out push. At least then you can tune it EXACTLY to the output you want instead of the chance that it acts as though you didn't change anything whatsoever.

The answer to an elefant shouldn't be "drive a tank at it into its 70 range (and increasing because it's fleeing the t34) and hope it doesn't hit a mine, or any support at all, then call in a strike which you must line up and time perfectly, and then slit the wrists of your neighborhood homeless person and utter a chant to RNG that these rockets with the same pen as a t34 at max range doesn't bounce as often as the aforementioned t34 who is so unreliable in the role of tank combat that its only contribution to this fight was suicide"

The solution to an overperforming ability should never be "let's just make it so it doesn't always work" it didn't work for simply cranking up the scatter of tanks like the is-2 or ISU because all more RNG does is... Increase the RNG and not the underlying issue.

At any rate, the real issue lies in that the soviet are I'll equipped without abilities like this, less than the ability changes itself. If the ability was an "option" instead of a staple it would be less of an issue. By your own example the way to use the ability is to sacrifice a tank and then get this to do all the rest of the work, which puts a lot of weight on the ability itself leaving little room for the RNG to bounce of the ass of the units it's meant to destroy.

How so? You'll most likely use this ability in conjunction with a ram, which will mean the Elefant will be backing up trying to save itself and into the path of the rocket plane targeting the rear armor (and due to collision, it's more likely to get struck then), or when the Elefant is snared and it'll be too slow to (fully) dodge it anyways.

And tripple PTRS was introduced to give Penals more alpha damage against lights. It hardly had anything to do with fighting tanks, let alone heavies/superheavies. They have the AT satchel for that.

Ram was nerfed but that's not the point.

Back in the last year, i though this nerf (pen nerf) was at some point implemented and told my AT partner to use it against the rear armor. At which he told me he was missing on several occasions and the dmg was inferior. After testing (and recognizing that pen nerf was not implemented yet) we found it was better to use it frontally (Tiger/KT/Ele) as it was more reliable dmg.


Regarding PTRS, yes, i know the point was fixing their intended role which was lacking (the light vehicle phase against specific vehicles). I'm pointing out that since 2013, the only/main approach Soviet had against long range TD has always been ram + offmap.
I don't think satchel nor current version of Penals PTRS provides enough pressure or motive for someone to back tech T1 in order to counter Ele/JT.

about ML 20 smoke barrage. Could we change it to Photpho barrage instead ?
pay ammo for long range smoke barrage is no sense.

HELL if anything it should be guaranteed to pen, not left up to RNG if you need to follow up, after throwing away a tank, with an all out push. At least then you can tune it EXACTLY to the output you want instead of the chance that it acts as though you didn't change anything whatsoever

You absolutely don't need to throw a tank for this ability to hit, unlike IL2 bombing strike, because the rockets come from an angle and the plain goes in pretty fast. It is essentially sort of like fragbombs of AT call-ins. Sometimes it is enough to have a damaged engine and some pressure for it to work. You can cut off retreat path for armor, or shoot it from ambiguous direction and it is not that expensive to use.

Although I kind of want it to be cheaper now, because loiters are not getting touched. They require almost zero input to use effectively, are able to hit way beyond its supposed range, thus denying a lot of ground.

That, however does not alter my view that the soviet are I'll equipped to fight heavy TDs as their doctrinal options become fewer and less reliable

I can't help but feel frustration seeing my T-34 bounce shots off the back of an Elefant at 10 range. Discounting Ram+Offmap, discounting SU-85 (which cannot fight an Elefant), discounting AT Guns (which will be vulnerable to capture since you're wheeling them up to the enemy's front line), I'm at a loss as to what the appropriate course of action is. I've expressed this before and have yet to receive an answer from anybody.

anyone knows the resources and difference between AT rockets ?

AT overwatch
IL2
Ju87
p47
Hawker?

I find all AT rocket too strong, maybe a nerf in the damage output.
at least infantry strife you cant wipe them as long you retreat

I can't help but feel frustration seeing my T-34 bounce shots off the back of an Elefant at 10 range. Discounting Ram+Offmap, discounting SU-85 (which cannot fight an Elefant), discounting AT Guns (which will be vulnerable to capture since you're wheeling them up to the enemy's front line), I'm at a loss as to what the appropriate course of action is. I've expressed this before and have yet to receive an answer from anybody.

I somehow second this feeling, but I am not sure if it is actually the case.
I think at this point some thoughts about UKF and USF are in order.
What stock options in your opinion do these two factions have to be able to deal with the Elefant?


The way I see it:
USF:
- ATG: If you invest muni, it is alright. Otherwise in general not the greatest counter to the Elefant, at least to to kill it.
- Sherman: Better pen, but overall the higher costs than the T34. Overall I'd rather have a T34 to attack an Elefant than a Sherman.
- Jackson: Better than the SU85 because quick and turreted. Plus AT ammo. Overall TDs are mediocre at best though in countering the Elefant.
- snares: Only on Rifles that need to push up far. Worse than Soviet Conscripts with ourah and snare.

UKF:
- ATG: Slightly better than the ZiS at the job, however also more easily wiped.
- Crommwell: Same situation as with the T34, although with hunt and war speed better than the Sherman.
- Firefly: Turreted and with stun, but slow so it can't flank. Usable for the stun.
- snares: worst of the bunch.



I think Soviets have the hardest time in killing the Elefant, but the easiest in mitigating it by snaring and forcing longer repairs. This is okay in the beginning, but the problem will build up with a vetting Elefant.

Instead of ramming the Elefant with a T34, I went to just driving into it. This makes the Elefant jerk around randomly and show rear armor to the front line while being unable to retreat and snarable. My T34 can still fire for the time it is alive and this allows my SUs to participate as well.
It is still cheesy AF and if possible should be designed differently.
In the long game, the best strategy in my eyes is to bleed the infantry first, so the Elefant will have phases of low support. If I fail to do that, I usually fail to kill the Elefant.

anyone knows the resources and difference between AT rockets ?

AT overwatch
IL2
Ju87
p47
Hawker?

I find all AT rocket too strong, maybe a nerf in the damage output.
at least infantry strife you cant wipe them as long you retreat

I am looking from older report file so something might not be up to date and I might have confused a weapon

60 damage 260/260/260 penetration
320 damage 340/340/340
50 damage 180/170/160
120 damage 160/160/160
80 damage 420/420/420

I am looking from older report file so something might not be up to date and I might have confused a weapon

60 damage 260/260/260 penetration
320 damage 340/340/340
50 damage 180/170/160
120 damage 160/160/160
80 damage 420/420/420

thanks mate, AT overwatch (sov one) seems too low damage as it seems deadly ingame lol.

hopefully we can review those AT rockets and perhaps beless deadly

thanks mate, AT overwatch (sov one) seems too low damage as it seems deadly ingame lol.

hopefully we can review those AT rockets and perhaps beless deadly

It it has high ROF that increase when target remain visible if ?I remember correctly.

popularity across modes
(each commander receives a rating according to how often it appear in each mode from 1 to 22 those numbers are added across the 4 modes and then get divided by 4)


Guards Motor Coordination Tactics 21.5
Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics 20
Counterattack Tactics 18.5
Airborne Troops Tactics 17.75
Mechanized Support Tactics 17.25
Urban Defense Tactics 17
Soviet Combined Arms Army 16
Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics 15.75
Soviet Shock Army 13.5
Armored Assault Tactics 13
Soviet Industry Tactics 12
NKVD Disruption Tactics 10.75
Defensive Tactics 10.5
Terror Tactics 10
Lend Lease Tactics 8.25
Shock Motor Heavy Tactics 8.25
Tank Hunter Tactics 7
Advanced Warfare Tactics 5
Partisan Tactics 4.5
Anti-Infantry Tactics 3.25
Soviet Reserve Army 2
Conscript Support Tactics 1.25

edited to include some epxlantions

ML20 smoke barrage should be No request Vet and No cost
And maybe could replace more shock troop by assault guards,too many Soviet commander have shock troop

ML20 smoke barrage should be No request Vet and No cost
And maybe could replace more shock troop by assault guards,too many Soviet commander have shock troop

Leave the Shock Troops where they are. Shock troops are the core of the Soviet infantry in this game unless you want to suffer.

thanks mate, AT overwatch (sov one) seems too low damage as it seems deadly ingame lol.

hopefully we can review those AT rockets and perhaps beless deadly

All this values really depend on the game situation, on having sight and on RoF respectively amount of bullets, rockets or shells. It can be quite misleading.

AT overwatch starts really slow and gains pace if you keep sight on target. It has problems to hit moving targets. It is best used at very slow targets. A snared Ele / JT or KT is the perfect target, it moves so slow that the shells will always hit it. A snared Panther on the other side won't get hit very often if at all, since it is pretty fast even if snared.

AT overwatch is only at commanders that get picked not that often, it could see some more action.

Leave the Shock Troops where they are. Shock troops are the core of the Soviet infantry in this game unless you want to suffer.

From first glance Assault guards are better than shock troops once vetted.

They can fight very well at mid range and are probably the most cost efficient AT unit.

snip

I think it would be best to add that these are average rankings. Otherwise it is hard to understand what exactly people are looking at.

You absolutely don't need to throw a tank for this ability to hit, unlike IL2 bombing strike, because the rockets come from an angle and the plain goes in pretty fast. It is essentially sort of like fragbombs of AT call-ins. Sometimes it is enough to have a damaged engine and some pressure for it to work. You can cut off retreat path for armor, or shoot it from ambiguous direction and it is not that expensive to use.

Although I kind of want it to be cheaper now, because loiters are not getting touched. They require almost zero input to use effectively, are able to hit way beyond its supposed range, thus denying a lot of ground.

Even that is a big ask though as it requires major misplay from your opponent and great risk to yourself for a strike that could possibly only knock off half the elefants health. Countering the elefant shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be tied to major misplay from your enemy combined risky play from yourself and lucky RNG rolls as well

Leave the Shock Troops where they are. Shock troops are the core of the Soviet infantry in this game unless you want to suffer.

I think now assault guards is pretty good，vet 1 heal themself and better vet bonus than shock means will more effective when assault guards reinforce with Consript，in my opinion shock will more better in 2cp and 1v1 2v2 game，but for some commander more effect in 3v3 and 4v4 like ISU+shock troop commander ，replace shock by assault guards I think will better

Assault Guards are appropriate in a Lend-Lease commander because it is thematic. But, Shock Troops you know smoke + frag grenade is a very good combination for QCQ.