radio silence change

hi i have heard that radio silence is very potent in the top level, and concerns about its balance next patch has sprung up. I believe i have a solution

make radio silence a toggle ability for 1 muni/sec

i htink that this would be an excellent change that would unrailroad the ability from just being a button you press for 60 seconds that you cant edit, rather, you can leave it on for as long as you have muni. 1 minute for 40 muni is now 1 minute for 60 muni so it is a nerf.

You heard it here guys. A suggestion to mega buff the ability. Now your units disappear from the tactical map and have perma sprint as long as you have munition left.

Increase in cost and maybe making Spy Network a bit better in the Partisan commander would help. 60 muni would be reasonable to some extent. But I also think you could keep it at the same price and lower the duration to like 15 seconds or something so it isn't active as long.

It is nice ability that shows the creativity that can be injected in coh games

Needs to be more OP, like permanently disable tacmap for Luvnest specifically

On a serious note, I think its cool even as a tacmap spammer myself. Definitely feel awesome on the OKW end

How I'd change it is not removing the icon mechanic, but only keeping the initial confusion:

- Icon of a unit appears on minimap again after a delay of 5 seconds after being in combat.
- If out of combat, disappear on minimap again after 15 seconds.

Then something about the ridiculous duration and cooldown of the ability:

- Duration from 60 to 45 seconds.
- Cooldown from 20-ish to 120 seconds.

Then see what it's like on top level where this ability is most broken.

Couldn't you replace it with some blank icon for the duration of the ability?

Basically you are hiding the information of what type of unit is attacking while not making them a whole invisible army.


I like your proposed solution but not sure how hard is for it to be implemented at all.


PD: reminder that this whole thing became good the moment we attached sprint into it.

PD: reminder that this whole thing became good the moment we attached sprint into it.

Also reminder that no one ever used it before it got the movement bonus.

PD: reminder that this whole thing became good the moment we attached sprint into it.

Also reminder that no one ever used it before it got the movement bonus.

This ridiculous assertion annoys me to no end.

Have you watched the tournament games? Did you think those games against Luvnest ending with multiple wipes and GG at 20-25 minutes were mostly caused by squads moving 20% faster?

And also the earlier games with Seeking and Noggano against weaker players ending at 10-15 minutes with the same story.

Panzer Tactician was considered weak in the first few months of this game's existence (I still remember arguments like "it's pointless, you can just attack ground through it"). What players thought was strong back then and what they think now doesn't say everything.

For one, you could call it skill ceiling rising as the playerbase discovers more strong abilities and synergies. For example: even after the speed boost it took a long while for other players to catch on, now it's the staple ability at top level. Who knows what players will find in the future.

Second, playstyles have changed allot. Around when Kimbo came to the scene, meta has been focused allot more around wipes, setting the stage for an ability like this.

Third, some aware top players like Luvnest have been using the ability since forever, it's just that the speed boost has made it accessible or at least discovered by players in automatch, because it now gives something dependable outside of an invisible benefit.

The fact remains that that invisible benefit is by far the greater evil of the two. If I had to give to give an estimate from watching it getting used, it makes tacmap players up to 50% less effective at playing, depending on how tacmap (or minimap) is used.

There is no real counterplay to this if you're dependant on tacmap, outside of completely changing your micro style for 60 seconds. Turning your micro style around by 180 degrees is not required by any other ability in the game and requires untraining things you might have been used to for years.

I frankly think if there was an ability in any other highly competitive RTS that messes with opponent's UI, it would've been removed a long time ago, unless the game was built around it.

I'd call this ability one of the worst designed in the game, only thing on the same level might be the B4 for different reasons, but B4 has almost no impact on competitive play while Radio Silence is actively ruining it in its current state.

Sadly the game is kinda stuck with its assets and design, so you have to keep the UI messing to have it make sense, but can make it so it only causes initial confusion and delayed reponse from the opponent, instead of keeping him constantly handicapped for a long duration. I'd keep the speed boost, so it has a use against players with different micro styles.

And yes, unless Radio Silence is implemented in a weird way, icons appearing again after a certain amount of time in combat should be possible, would have to take a look tho.

In my opinion we can expect top level players to adjust to a different playstyle for the duration of the ability. But I agree that there is no counterplay, since there is also no announcement. A bandaid fox could be to add some kind of hint for the opposing player, however that would look like.

Personally though I'd like to see a rework for the sole fact that this ability performs so much differently between skill levels. For low level play, it moght almost be useless apart from the speed buff. And in random games, you have no idea if the ability has the intended effect at all or not.

In my opinion we can expect top level players to adjust to a different playstyle for the duration of the ability. But I agree that there is no counterplay, since there is also no announcement.

I think the ability is unique and mostly fine. It just shouldn't be available constantly. Cost, duration and/or cooldown nerfs would be enough for me. If it could only be used once every ~5 minutes rather than every 2 minutes, the ability would still be great to play into (similar to saving up for a strafe and using it while attacking) while giving the opposing player a better chance to play around it. Hang back / retreat / play safe during the 30-60s it's active, then have at least another 5 minutes to play regularly. Similar to strafes or other global buff abilities.

I'm against removing or heavily adjusting a totally unique ability. In my opinion the game should have (had) more psychological warfare abilities, not fewer. It makes the game more exciting when players can choose to use indirect abilities rather than just brute force.

I think the ability is unique and mostly fine. It just shouldn't be available constantly. Cost, duration and/or cooldown nerfs would be enough for me. If it could only be used once every ~5 minutes rather than every 2 minutes, the ability would still be great to play into (similar to saving up for a strafe and using it while attacking) while giving the opposing player a better chance to play around it. Hang back / retreat / play safe during the 30-60s it's active, then have at least another 5 minutes to play regularly. Similar to strafes or other global buff abilities.

I'm against removing or heavily adjusting a totally unique ability. In my opinion the game should have (had) more psychological warfare abilities, not fewer. It makes the game more exciting when players can choose to use indirect abilities rather than just brute force.

+1

In my opinion we can expect top level players to adjust to a different playstyle for the duration of the ability. But I agree that there is no counterplay, since there is also no announcement. A bandaid fox could be to add some kind of hint for the opposing player, however that would look like.

Well it's not really reacting to a playstyle, it's having to change your micro style to be less handicapped, which is a lose-lose situation because any micro style which isn't your main style (say from tacmap to sidescrolling) is gonna be worse.

Simply said, opponent clicks a button and wishes you good luck at coping with a large part of your UI being hardly usable at reading information.

To me that doesn't seem about who's the better player anymore, but about handicapping the other player's ability to play, and I find it cringeworthy to watch, to use and to endure.

After watching veterans like Quiritz or Luvnest losing multiple squads to it (referring to games I saw in the tourney), am I going to tell them to learn to play or try harder?

Changing how they use their units won't change much if their micro style just doesn't give them enough information on how to use them while Radio Silence is active.

It's not like Osttruppen or Mechanized meta, picking another faction or another doctrine isn't going to help you if you're a tacmap user.

No, it's the ONLY ability in the game that requires to rewire how you navigate around the game and that is NOT at all about strategy and has VERY little reason to exist in rts. I cannot say the better player won if the winning player used this ability in a match, it's anticompetitive.

I think the ability is unique and mostly fine. It just shouldn't be available constantly. Cost, duration and/or cooldown nerfs would be enough for me. If it could only be used once every ~5 minutes rather than every 2 minutes, the ability would still be great to play into (similar to saving up for a strafe and using it while attacking) while giving the opposing player a better chance to play around it. Hang back / retreat / play safe during the 30-60s it's active, then have at least another 5 minutes to play regularly. Similar to strafes or other global buff abilities.

I'm against removing or heavily adjusting a totally unique ability. In my opinion the game should have (had) more psychological warfare abilities, not fewer. It makes the game more exciting when players can choose to use indirect abilities rather than just brute force.

I agree that there are very few gameplay changing abilities in CoH2. However I disagree that we should keep the ability as is, because the design is bad. Even if we neglect what happens at top level play (which is obviously not representative for 95% of the player base), half of this ability won't work or at the very least you do not know if it will work or not, because you don't know if the random opponent you got actually uses the tac map or not.

If we want to focus solely on competitive play, then I agree. As I said we can expect players to not use tac map for a while, but then I also think that a small announcement would possibly be in order. Tac map players already have the "damage" of needing to adjust and being over-microed during the ability. It might remove some of the cheese of the ability while still keeping it functional.

But as I said, I don't think this ability is well designed at all, since outside of the top % of players that know each other and each others play styles, you don't know if half of the ability will work at all and therefore you can't really bet on it. It is highly inconsistent and this inconsistency should be removed.

Well it's not really reacting to a playstyle, it's having to change your micro style to be less handicapped, which is a lose-lose situation because any micro style which isn't your main style (say from tacmap to sidescrolling) is gonna be worse.

Simply said, opponent clicks a button and wishes you good luck at coping with a large part of your UI being hardly usable at reading information.

To me that doesn't seem about who's the better player anymore, but about handicapping the other player's ability to play, and I find it cringeworthy to watch, to use and to endure.

After watching Quiritz losing multiple squads to it or Luvnest losing multiple squads to it (referring to games I saw in the tourney), am I going to tell them to learn to play or try harder?

Changing how they use their units won't change much if their micro style just doesn't give them enough information on how to use them while Radio Silence is active.

It's not like Osttruppen or Mechanized meta, picking another faction or another doctrine isn't going to help you if you're a tacmap user.

No, it's the ONLY ability in the game that requires to rewire how you navigate around the game and that is NOT at all about strategy and has VERY little reason to exist in rts. I cannot say the better player won if the winning player used this ability in a match, it's anti-competitive.

I already said in a previous thread that it comes down to how we see the use of tac map: Do we see it as an equivalent play style to "normal" view or not?
I personally think that using tac map is an active choice. Players trade general overview for less situational overview. If you fully rely on it than that's a gamble, just like fully relying on the normal screen can cause you to lose awareness as well. If players are only capable of doing one playstyle only than they make themselves vulnerable.

Out of interest since you obviously disagree with me:
How do you think about abilities like the spy network and others that enhance the mini map/tac map view? While not 100% comparable, those abilities also alter the usage of UI for one play style only.

I already said in a previous thread that it comes down to how we see the use of tac map: Do we see it as an equivalent play style to "normal" view or not?

It is one of the greatest benefits to CoH as an RTS series and praised by the playerbase. I doubt the competitive scene would've delivered as good or as many players without it, so yes.

I personally think that using tac map is an active choice. Players trade general overview for less situational overview. If you fully rely on it than that's a gamble, just like fully relying on the normal screen can cause you to lose awareness as well. If players are only capable of doing one playstyle only than they make themselves vulnerable.

Learning how to use the tacmap most optimally as to not impact your precision is something many players that use it can still improve on. You could argue some like Luvnest are a bit overreliant on it, I personally think Isildur uses it in the perfect way.

But in any case, most of the best 1v1/2v2 players like Isildur, Noggano and Luvnest are reliant on tacmap and it shows it's an important factor to success.

There's but a handful of players at top level 1v1 that don't use it and they usually come from a 2v2-only background, like Seeking and Expensive Runner, where engagements are less spread around the map.

Lesser still is the amount of players who used both ways at top level. I can only think of Kimbo, who forced himself to use tacmap after losing to Asiamint in a tournament in order to improve further.

Can it be beneficial to get as proficient as possible with both? Yes, if even just to understand the disadvantages and advantages of both to reach what you're most comfortable with.

Would I call one of the players better over the other by how proficient they are at either? No, and that's honestly where the issue lies with Radio Silence, it has nothing to do with strategy or gameplay and all to do with preference, which is why I believe an ability should not make one of them practically useless. I want to see both players being able to play at their best within the boundaries of the game, not the UI.

Out of interest since you obviously disagree with me:
How do you think about abilities like the spy network and others that enhance the mini map/tac map view? While not 100% comparable, those abilities also alter the usage of UI for one play style only.

I don't agree an ability you can only get much use out of with tacmap ( - and honestly in this case it's as simple as opening and closing tacmap, not really a micro style - ) is an equal problem to an ability that makes the opponent's UI almost useless at gathering information at best and forces him to completely change how to gather information, navigate, make decisions and give commands at worst.

Could argue Relic made the default hotkey for tacmap too hard to reach and not rebindable though.

I'm shocked that someone thinks this ability is "perfectly fine". It's a terrible design for competitive environment. obviously I am not as good player as Luvnest is, but I do use tact map 90% of all game and there shouldn't be an ability in game that can mess with opponent's UI.

If players are only capable of doing one playstyle only than they make themselves vulnerable.

I love how casually you throw out lines like that. If we talk about strategies yes, I don't mind losing to a opponent who has the better build order or executes his orders better than me. I also don't mind missing a grenade because I was too busy on the tacmap. But do you seriously suggest a player needs more "playstyles" as in mechanical ways in order to play the game? I don't see how a fourth-wall breaking ability like this that disables part of your user interface enriches anyone's gameplay experience. May I suggest a new commander ability that temporarly disables the use of hotkeys, forcing you to manually click the abilities? According to your logic, a player who only specialized in using hotkeys would be quite vulnerable to that, too.

I see the tacmap as an enlarged version of the minimap, they are one and the same thing. I personally can't indentify shit on the minimap, it lacks clear contrast (compared to other RTS like WC3 or SC2 where I happily use it) so I'm happy with using the tacmap since 2013. Playing like this is kinda hardcoded into my brain whenever I boot CoH2, so when I see you casually suggest adapting another so called playstyle for the only 4th wallbreaking ability in the game, it made me chuckle. WFA Radio Silence was released in 2015 but always remained a sleeper ability up until now.

If I have to invest another rougly 5k hours into the game again to become as comfortable with the minimap (instead of tacmap) then I'd say this is not a worthwhile investment and I'd rather stay away from CoH2.

I think the ability is unique and mostly fine. It just shouldn't be available constantly. Cost, duration and/or cooldown nerfs would be enough for me. If it could only be used once every ~5 minutes rather than every 2 minutes, the ability would still be great to play into (similar to saving up for a strafe and using it while attacking) while giving the opposing player a better chance to play around it. Hang back / retreat / play safe during the 30-60s it's active, then have at least another 5 minutes to play regularly. Similar to strafes or other global buff abilities.

I'm against removing or heavily adjusting a totally unique ability. In my opinion the game should have (had) more psychological warfare abilities, not fewer. It makes the game more exciting when players can choose to use indirect abilities rather than just brute force.

Very exciting ability indeed by pushing a magic button that makes all enemy units disappear. It takes no skill whatsoever to execute and there is literally zero counterplay to it.
It's the same excitement I feel when a random loiter plane kills my vehicle in my own base sector, after my opponent carefully pressed two consecutive buttons in a row.

I have to express my disappointment that so many people apparently see no issue here as long as it doesn't affect them personally. Kind of reminds me of the people arguing for the only faction that they play in total disregard of the overall balance as a whole.

I also created this thread prior to this topic https://www.coh2.org/topic/107150/okw-spec-ops-doctrine-especially-radio-silence

Also about the thread creators original suggestion: hell noooo

Also worth adding is the ability has no counter play whatsoever, and also requires no skill to pull of whatsoever, it's the definition of lazy design and is gimmicky in nature.

Yes it may have been 'cool' the fact that Isildur/Noggano saved it to counter one player in a Commander Terminator scenario, but now it's been discovered to literally counter players such as yourself or Asiamint... imagine a tourney with no commander limitations......