SU-85 and SU-76

Su-85 could be counted as essential stock unit for SU. Because only it have enough AT abilities against axis armor. But from other side - su-85 good against all armor, it have enough ROF to be big threat to mediums, that make all late-game the same.

My suggestion is make from it anti-heavy AT, not good-against-all-armor-unit. While role of anti-medium tool move to su-76. Decrease ROF, increase damage from 160 to 200. Than mediums still need the same 4 shots, but will be have much more time in battle against su-85, while heavy targets, like P5, tigers, KTs will be much more preferable targets (-1 shot for kill).

When T4 is deployed every SU-76 can got upgrade to damage and HP (160 damage total and HP enough not to get fausted from start). Cost of upgrade could be like 15 fuel and some MP to bring su-76 in pair wuth stug. In T3 could be make the same unlock for upgrade (like for cons). Cost could be close to cons unlock upgrade or another value.
It will bring Su-76 in-game and give for both units (SU-76 and su-85) 2 distinct roles. SU-76 good against mediums and lights, SU-85 preferable against top-tier targets.

Data from coh2db.com
All mediums have 640hp. 4 shots for old su85, 4 shots for new su-85
P5 have 960 hp 6 shots for old su85, 5 shots for new su-85
Tiger have 1040 hp 7 shots for old su85, 6 shots for new su-85
KT have 1280 hp 8 shots for old su85, 7 shots for new su-85

I dont really mind the way it is now, basically 76 being the budget variant u get when ur behind, but your suggestion is really neat and would be nice

I would love to see the same treatment for USF with their M10 Wolverine and Jackson. There was even a thread with this idea. It was pretty much the same as what you've suggested, but without any upgrades for M10.

I don't see why you can't just have an upgrade for each Su-76 individually, instead of copy-pasting the Cons' 7th man in here. The cost of the upgrade could just be lowered, once T4 is built.
Example:
The upgrade for a new, fresh, Su-76, that increases its damage and health, would be 70 Ammo, without a T4.
WITH a T4, however, the cost is lowered to 50 Ammo. This is fair, considering that the person built the T4 for another 90 Fuel, for example, for T-34-76s to do AI work (because T-70 died or smth), and still needs some potent AT (well, I still think T-34-76s are fine in both departments, but still).
Could work, if you ask me.

I don't think either need a change.

SU-76 is basically a ZiS gun on wheels. It has glass cannon AT but is able to support with the barrage ability. Can't remember if the muni cost was still in but when it was free, it was amazing. I find myself going for SU-76 if my opponent decides to rush early light/med armour. Its an excellent counter. T-70 otherwise.

The SU-76 scales well into the late game too with the barrage ability being universally useful.

SU-85 vision combos well with a lot of units that need vision. I find myself using one with the ISU. While an expensive combo, it is a very effective one. I think any buff to the SU-85 will make it better than the SU-76 overall. While I would like to see the 76 buffed, I don't think its needed.

I would love to see the same treatment for USF with their M10 Wolverine and Jackson. There was even a thread with this idea. It was pretty much the same as what you've suggested, but without any upgrades for M10.

I don't see why you can't just have an upgrade for each Su-76 individually, instead of copy-pasting the Cons' 7th man in here. The cost of the upgrade could just be lowered, once T4 is built.
Example:
The upgrade for a new, fresh, Su-76, that increases its damage and health, would be 70 Ammo, without a T4.
WITH a T4, however, the cost is lowered to 50 Ammo. This is fair, considering that the person built the T4 for another 90 Fuel, for example, for T-34-76s to do AI work (because T-70 died or smth), and still needs some potent AT (well, I still think T-34-76s are fine in both departments, but still).
Could work, if you ask me.

My idea was make upgrade for each Su-76 with fuel cost, not muni (15 fuel and 70-100 MP or some another value). Because su-76 will get very serious buffs with it, upgrade will be too OP without fuel investments. This upgrade will be unlocked for free in T4, while in T3 you can buy it. If player will want early "boosted" su-76, than he can buy unlock for upgrade in T3 (like unlock for cons) and than start upgrading each su-76. But cost of each upgrade still the same.

I don't think either need a change.

SU-76 is basically a ZiS gun on wheels. It has glass cannon AT but is able to support with the barrage ability. Can't remember if the muni cost was still in but when it was free, it was amazing.

Zis in any case better than SU-76 (now). It scales in terms of AT potential muuuch more better. It can deal with top-tier armor. While su-76 with low HP and low damage, good only as soft counter against mediums. Yea, Su-76 vets pretty fast, but it don't change overall situation - you almost don't see it in tournaments or pro-games. Zis -yes, su-85 - almost in every game, su-76 - no.

Think zis-3 and su-76 are balancing each other out somewhat, with zis-3 having better rate of fire? and quicker cooldown for barrage ability, but slow and soft, while su-76 sacrifices barrage cooldown and dpm?
su-76 being cheap and at 8 popcost, it sits there fine, if one would like to buff the HP of the su-76, it needs to be bumped up to 10 popcost IMHO. Or remove/nerf some of its features to make it more durable and deadly vs panthers etc to keep it down at the low cost/pop

i think mostly of Su76 as a premium ZIS gun.
Therefore i would like to make it more durable against mediums rathen than breaking the SU85 balance.
If Su76 were a little more vulnerable (specially with the rear armor) to small arms fire, it could have as a bonus a "stationary" mode that decreases its target size, ideal for ambushing.

i think mostly of Su76 as a premium ZIS gun.
Therefore i would like to make it more durable against mediums rathen than breaking the SU85 balance.
If Su76 were a little more vulnerable (specially with the rear armor) to small arms fire, it could have as a bonus a "stationary" mode that decreases its target size, ideal for ambushing.

Problem with su-76 that it don't have place in current SU unit roster. You almost don't see it on pro-games and tournaments. Double-zis much more profitable. While another rare unit as M5 (mostly support unit) have it's place like AA platform or mobile reinforcement, SU-76 don't. Especially if you have T2.
If SU-76 have 1 clear, distinct role it will be better for unit. I like how were returned in game pgrens, even ostwind become more playable unit. But unfortunately, for SU-76 don't exist easy way to fix. Any strong buffs will lead to spam, like in old times with free barrage (yea, it was almost useless when you have 1 su-76, but when you have 3...).
From other side, SU have only SU-85 to deal with ALL axis armor from medium to heavy. IMHO i don't think that is good when one unit do this job. Just imagine situation, when you go through T1 and stay behind (t-70 hit the teller from start) - you have only 2 strong options to deal with upcoming P4: build SU-76 or make backtech to T2 and build zis. Backtech cost more MP, but will save your fuel for T4. Build 1 zis and you have hardcounter to P4, not so mobile, but at least you can keep P4 at bay. While SU-76...with PTRS penals you can keep P4 far away, but when 2-nd will arrive, it will mean you have very hard time. Right now SU-76 good against stugs, ostwinds and light armor, for mediums much more safely build zis.

The su76 just like the m5 or t3 entirely arrive late. Hampering every unit in the tier.

The m5 at least can be ussefull as the only stock aa soviet have, but it dies to gust of wind. The t70 is great as ai powerhouse but also short lived. The su76 arives much later then its intended targets and like the t70 only moments before the p4 mostly arrives.

T4 and zis are much safer or cost effective choices

Why is everyone wanting every TD to be "only counter heavy tanks" like heavy tanks are in every game. Panther comes with it's speed and armour and then what? Basically you want to force allies to make zook spams to deal with mediums. Pj4 from OKW (TD) is the same as SU-85 and nobody ever complains about it. It's a perfect medium TD. ~200 penetration with 230 frontal armour and 4.3 sec reload and target size 17.

Compared to SU-85 it's got 90 armour more, 1 sec faster reload, less penetration (going against seldom heavy tanks) and 1 size bigger.

You can easily see why ally TDs have the advantages they have. They have to go vs fast heavily armoured Panther and often enough Tigers and OKW P4s.

Leave the ally TDs alone. You nerf SU-85, Panthers (stock) roll over the Soviet armoured divisions unless you get doctrinal tanks.

Don't get me wrong, your changes are not bad, just that Panthers which are stock would be much more inclined to dive SU-85 due to the lower ROF. Utilize speed to make SU-85 constantly in "tracking" mode and not firing.

Why is everyone wanting every TD to be "only counter heavy tanks" like heavy tanks are in every game. Panther comes with it's speed and armour and then what? Basically you want to force allies to make zook spams to deal with mediums. Pj4 from OKW (TD) is the same as SU-85 and nobody ever complains about it. It's a perfect medium TD. ~200 penetration with 230 frontal armour and 4.3 sec reload and target size 17.

I just want to make +1 unit playable in T3 not only t-70. Stugs, P4s, panthers and JP4 easily penetrate every SU stock armor. But from other side, each of them have clear, distinct role. And no one will built Panther, JP4 or stug to deal with lonely t-34. Against medium spam or KV-1 spam, why not? It will be good choice.

You can easily see why ally TDs have the advantages they have. They have to go vs fast heavily armoured Panther and often enough Tigers and OKW P4s.

Leave the ally TDs alone. You nerf SU-85, Panthers (stock) roll over the Soviet armoured divisions unless you get doctrinal tanks.

Don't get me wrong, your changes are not bad, just that Panthers which are stock would be much more inclined to dive SU-85 due to the lower ROF. Utilize speed to make SU-85 constantly in "tracking" mode and not firing.

Yea, Panther have speed, especially when blitz become available. But even now, you can easily dive su-85 with panther, high ROF don't prevent diving. Diving means only that SU player make big mistake and not defend its TD by infantry support.
I really like how OST armor is now. Every unit have place.P4 as good generalist, Panther against TD or mediums, stug as cheap AT against almost everything (much more close to ATG on weels than su-76), brummbar to head-on assault and werfer to punish team-weapons spam. While SU plays only t-34 and su-85 almost every game and katy when enemy have too many team weapon. SU-76 don't have place in any timeframe, in any loadout.

it could benefit from a change to make a place for it in the meta now, perhaps drop the barrage ability in favour for increased ROF or give it a hp boost to avoid it getting engine dmg from a single faust?

Even when i agree with maret about Su76, there is a slight problem

Either Su76 should compete with T70 (wich is great) and the only way to do so its actually giving more mobility and AI to Su76 (also a turret) or it should compete against double ZIS guns, while being also a self propelled unit. To excel ZIS guns, Su76 should get more AT power (roughly speaking) and that is a general concensus, but why would you do that when SU85 already got that job well covered?

So the only trick left for Su76 to do is simply survive rocket barrages, the same ones that a ZIS gun would not survive. It is quite costly for that matter, but maybe it can be tweaked into a better unit somehow.

The SU85 definitely needs tweaks no unit in the game should be able to spot for itself STOCK especially a long range one.. .

The SU85 definitely needs tweaks no unit in the game should be able to spot for itself STOCK especially a long range one.. .

The su85 has no ai, is casemate, not very durable or fast compared to other td,s.

I dont see any problem with its vision ability. Maybe a slight rof nerf during the ability should be added to emphezise focuzing on aming. But it usualy gets off only 1 maybe 2 shots in this mode. So its a big maybe imo.

The su85 has no ai, is casemate, not very durable or fast compared to other td,s.

I dont see any problem with its vision ability. Maybe a slight rof nerf during the ability should be added to emphezise focuzing on aming. But it usualy gets off only 1 maybe 2 shots in this mode. So its a big maybe imo.

The Su-85 can combine focus sight and sight from tracking allowing to see further away than most units.

As a TD it already comes with one of the best guns in game, it does not need to able to act as great reckon vehicle also.

I think the SU76 is fine in miragefla's mod.

I think the SU76 is fine in miragefla's mod.

What did he do with it?

The Su-85 can combine focus sight and sight from tracking allowing to see further away than most units.

As a TD it already comes with one of the best guns in game, it does not need to able to act as great reckon vehicle also.

The vision is focused. Its not a 360° vision buff. Its speed is nerfed during the ability. You cant toggle it willy nilly it has a cooldown.

Recon vehicles offer vision 360° are faster even with extra long sight. And mostly dont need an ability for it. Esp not one that slows you down and gives eye caps for tunnel vision.

Imo thats enough downsides to balance the upsides.