Vehicles crushing infantry: Skill or abuse?
3 May 2020, 06:12 AM
#1
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Curious as to what people think of this "mechanic". Is this a mechanic or an exploit? Is it fair for players to lose control over where their infantry move and inevitibly die, even against AT only vehicles like the M10 and StuG? Or is forcing a retreat acceptable vs something that normally would have no chance vs said vehicle?
3 May 2020, 06:26 AM
#2
Posts: 1954
While it looks and feels kind of psychotic, it does take skill/knowledge of the game to do it. It's also completely historical.
3 May 2020, 06:49 AM
#3
Posts: 833
I don't think reversing old Cromwell into blobs like an RC car back and forwards for more kills was historical
But yes you should be able to run over prone infantry
But yes you should be able to run over prone infantry
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
3 May 2020, 07:26 AM
#4
Posts: 224
I always find discussions like this interesting. You'll find hardcore veterans defending any mechanic that can be abused - look at StarCraft for what happens to a game that panders to that audience.
Vehicle crush is tricky though, and it's always been pretty contentious - I remember rejoicing at the new capture system in this game purely for the fact that a vehicle would no longer be able to push infantry out of a capture. The question is how infantry would react to a tank/vehicle if crush was absent. I find the ability for vehicles to completely disrupt infantry by charging them to be pretty cheesy, but I don't know what would ideally replace it.
Vehicle crush is tricky though, and it's always been pretty contentious - I remember rejoicing at the new capture system in this game purely for the fact that a vehicle would no longer be able to push infantry out of a capture. The question is how infantry would react to a tank/vehicle if crush was absent. I find the ability for vehicles to completely disrupt infantry by charging them to be pretty cheesy, but I don't know what would ideally replace it.
3 May 2020, 07:31 AM
#5
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
I don't think reversing old Cromwell into blobs like an RC car back and forwards for more kills was historical
But yes you should be able to run over prone infantry
I didn't really express it very well in my OP and in the poll, but this is what I like. Being able to crush prone and pinned units but not just pushing from bags with kubels or crushing with M10s.
3 May 2020, 08:23 AM
#6
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
With how hard it is to pull off nowadays and with how dangerous it is to drive up vehicles to infantry most of the time - I'd say its skill.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
3 May 2020, 08:39 AM
#7
Posts: 1351
Imo the problem does not lie in the crush 'ability' itself. It is the problem of game mechnics that forces players to use it as the guns on certain vehicles are so much worse at killing models than using those vehicles to crush. If these vehicles had switchable HE rounds, for example, players would rely on their weapons more than on the ability to crush and wouldn't try to exploit it. Imo he rounds could solve this problem and would make the game more natural/expected.
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3 May 2020, 08:43 AM
#8
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
It makes vehicle gameplay more interesting to watch, requires skill to pull off and it's also a trade-off between doing manpower damage and exposing your vehicle.
It's not the same as some bug abuse that's still left in CoH1 for example, such as:
- Spamming unfinished ghost tank traps to disrupt vehicle pathing
- Refacing a Pak38 so it skips its reload time and shoots like 50% faster.
- Units that keep sprinting after having retreated to the British Captain.
- Making a sandbag after a capwalk so all the squad models teleport to the same location (capwalk itself is also questionable and got fixed in CoH2)
It's not the same as some bug abuse that's still left in CoH1 for example, such as:
- Spamming unfinished ghost tank traps to disrupt vehicle pathing
- Refacing a Pak38 so it skips its reload time and shoots like 50% faster.
- Units that keep sprinting after having retreated to the British Captain.
- Making a sandbag after a capwalk so all the squad models teleport to the same location (capwalk itself is also questionable and got fixed in CoH2)
3 May 2020, 09:54 AM
#9
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I think crushing nowadays mostly depends on player skill/knowledge, and there is a good enough risk/reward dynamic in place because usually a player is putting their tank out of position which can be risky if there's any sort of AT nearby. So in essence it's good to keep it in to make the game more interesting.
The only thing that I would change (if it was possible) would be to make tanks increasingly unresponsive/slower as the amount of manoeuvres stacks. So the more turning / reversing / moving forward the tank does the slower it gets. That way crushing would become a one time thing (based on momentum) rather than endlessly trying to go-kart around a squad trying to get some lucky crushes.
The only thing that I would change (if it was possible) would be to make tanks increasingly unresponsive/slower as the amount of manoeuvres stacks. So the more turning / reversing / moving forward the tank does the slower it gets. That way crushing would become a one time thing (based on momentum) rather than endlessly trying to go-kart around a squad trying to get some lucky crushes.
3 May 2020, 10:07 AM
#10
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I think crushing is OK. I really hate light vehicle pushing though - I find it super cheesy when you are in a good green cover position in the early game and the enemy just pushes you around with a Kubel/USF truck/scout car/UC, making your damage output 0 while another one of their squads shoots at you. Who needs flanking when you can just abuse the fact that the enemy doesn't have faust/AT nade yet.
3 May 2020, 11:11 AM
#11
Posts: 177
Agree, after the fixes (e.g. Crushwell turning speed) it's now a fair risk / reward mechanic.
Avoiding unnecessary pushing by vehicles that don't actually crush (e.g. Kubel driving up to the wrong side of sandbags) could do with a fix, e.g. infantry only dodge if they are actually touched, but I guess that that would be difficult to implement.
Also, it would really be a stealth nerf to e.g. Kubel so a slight buffs there would have to be considered also.
Avoiding unnecessary pushing by vehicles that don't actually crush (e.g. Kubel driving up to the wrong side of sandbags) could do with a fix, e.g. infantry only dodge if they are actually touched, but I guess that that would be difficult to implement.
Also, it would really be a stealth nerf to e.g. Kubel so a slight buffs there would have to be considered also.
3 May 2020, 14:59 PM
#12
Posts: 1954
I think crushing is OK. I really hate light vehicle pushing though - I find it super cheesy when you are in a good green cover position in the early game and the enemy just pushes you around with a Kubel/USF truck/scout car/UC, making your damage output 0 while another one of their squads shoots at you. Who needs flanking when you can just abuse the fact that the enemy doesn't have faust/AT nade yet.
Agreed, none of those vehicles should be able to push a unit out of cover. When units are out of cover, then I think it is okay, but don't know if anyone could code this into the game.
3 May 2020, 15:00 PM
#13
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
I really hate light vehicle pushing though
I dunno about you man, but if I'm in a war and a light tank tries to ram me over, I'm not gonna stand my ground.
3 May 2020, 15:12 PM
#14
Posts: 1954
I don't think reversing old Cromwell into blobs like an RC car back and forwards for more kills was historical
But yes you should be able to run over prone infantry
There are lots of tank battle documentaries on Netflix and Amazon prime. Several of the WWII have interviews with veterans who would disagree with you about tank crush being real. I happened to be watching this one (battle of El Alamein) yesterday before I saw this thread.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07MG5T6R9/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_1
About 3/4 of the way through, you'll see a German describing the Brits crushing/decapitating/burying alive infantry. I've seen other ones where it was the other way around.
3 May 2020, 15:17 PM
#15
Posts: 1954
I dunno about you man, but if I'm in a war and a light tank tries to ram me over, I'm not gonna stand my ground.
He was talking about light vehicles, not tanks. If you were in a war, you wouldn't have tried to run over anything with this:
3 May 2020, 15:20 PM
#16
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
There are lots of tank battle documentaries on Netflix and Amazon prime. Several of the WWII have interviews with veterans who would disagree with you about tank crush being real. I happened to be watching this one (battle of El Alamein) yesterday before I saw this thread.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07MG5T6R9/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_1
About 3/4 of the way through, you'll see a German describing the Brits crushing/decapitating/burying alive infantry. I've seen other ones where it was the other way around.
T34s ran over AT guns if they got close enough.
He was talking about light vehicles, not tanks. If you were in a war, you wouldn't have tried to run over anything with this:
You wanna stand your ground as this runs over you? Be my guest.
3 May 2020, 16:03 PM
#17
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
You wanna stand your ground as this runs over you? Be my guest.
He literally stated that with light vehicles in this context he meant the ultra lights
Kubel/USF truck/scout car/UC
3 May 2020, 16:04 PM
#18
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
He literally stated that with light vehicles in this context he meant the ultra lights
I missed that
Still, not gonna get run over by a car, I’m gonna do what inf do in the game and get off its path.
3 May 2020, 16:11 PM
#19
Posts: 2358
Unpopular opinion here.
I think its ok to have some crush mechanic. I just really dont like the way it is implemented now.
Some tanks crush, somehow (magically) some others dont (Because balace OFC)
But then it is so skill dependent and its such a niche feature, that only very weird situation can make use of it. Also to have a squad in "freaked out" mode just to watch them be crushed by a tank going forwards and backwards like it was trying to park makes it very micro intensive just for a meme wipe.
I would like crushing be implemented to be logical
I think its ok to have some crush mechanic. I just really dont like the way it is implemented now.
Some tanks crush, somehow (magically) some others dont (Because balace OFC)
But then it is so skill dependent and its such a niche feature, that only very weird situation can make use of it. Also to have a squad in "freaked out" mode just to watch them be crushed by a tank going forwards and backwards like it was trying to park makes it very micro intensive just for a meme wipe.
I would like crushing be implemented to be logical
3 May 2020, 21:33 PM
#20
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
It makes vehicle gameplay more interesting to watch, requires skill to pull off and it's also a trade-off between doing manpower damage and exposing your vehicle.
It's not the same as some bug abuse that's still left in CoH1 for example, such as:
- Spamming unfinished ghost tank traps to disrupt vehicle pathing
- Refacing a Pak38 so it skips its reload time and shoots like 50% faster.
- Units that keep sprinting after having retreated to the British Captain.
- Making a sandbag after a capwalk so all the squad models teleport to the same location (capwalk itself is also questionable and got fixed in CoH2)
Basically this.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
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