Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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You have a unit which fights better long range - which is better for a squish squad, and synergizes better with a flamer. Let me explain: when you have a flamer on ost pios they basically stop dealing damage with their smgs, as flamer is a long range weapon and they will start dealing dmg with flamer only. When you equip a flamer on combat engineers, they still use their rifles at their preffered range to deal long range damage together with the flamer.

But, above all, both CE and pios are not fronline units. Their engineering performance is largely the same and the price should be more similar.

IMO pios don't have anything that great that justifies 30mp price difference. This price difference makes it too possible to make 2 CEs for just 340manpower lategame and this tips the balance.

as flamer is a long range weapon and they will start dealing dmg with flamer only. When you equip a flamer on combat engineers, they still use their rifles at their preffered range to deal long range damage together with the flamer.

I'd classify the flamer as medium range rather.



Not that history should dictate balance, but historically Pioneers and Engineers were elite units and had among the highest mortality rates. I think they should be a little bit more badass considering their actual roles.

I'd classify the flamer as medium range rather.



Not that history should dictate balance, but historically Pioneers and Engineers were elite units and had among the highest mortality rates. I think they should be a little bit more badass considering their actual roles.

Flamer has a range 20 and completely flat DPS so it better used at that range.

At that range pio smgs contribution to DPS (actually they are usually behind the flamer and thus further away) is minimal. C.E get DPS from their 3 mosins.

CE are fine as they are, but Ostheer's Pios are the problem.

With their weapon-stats they are simply bad. ^^

And clearing shot blocker is an op ability.

Med vehicles confirmed op.

You have a unit which fights better long range - which is better for a squish squad, and synergizes better with a flamer. Let me explain: when you have a flamer on ost pios they basically stop dealing damage with their smgs, as flamer is a long range weapon and they will start dealing dmg with flamer only. When you equip a flamer on combat engineers, they still use their rifles at their preffered range to deal long range damage together with the flamer.

But, above all, both CE and pios are not fronline units. Their engineering performance is largely the same and the price should be more similar.

IMO pios don't have anything that great that justifies 30mp price difference. This price difference makes it too possible to make 2 CEs for just 340manpower lategame and this tips the balance.

Would you. Consider seeing up defensive positions engineer jobs? Because pios can do that and CE cannot. Sandbags as well as bunkers (yes they cost extra but it's an option) and mines that can OHK light vehicles. Pios cost more because they do more. It's not negotiable. Do more= cost more do less =cost less pios do more = cost more CE do less = cost less. There's more to the game than JUST repairs late game.

Would you. Consider seeing up defensive positions engineer jobs? Because pios can do that and CE cannot.

But they do their engineering jobs just fine. They have different types of mines and explosives - not a big deal - one player prefers minefields+telles, another prefers regular mines. One player likes cqc and more risk because of it, another prefers long ranger squad with less vision.

Sandbags as well as bunkers (yes they cost extra but it's an option)

Ability to build sandbags should be given to grens just like it was given to conscripts. Pios can build them and it makes them 'overworked' and makes it more difficult for grens to use those sandbags. The fact that pios not grens build them is actually a nerf to the whole faction. I'd move them to grens immediately but a lot of allied players are afraid of it (but it is ok to them that cons and UKF inf. can build them!)

Bukers were supposed to be a faction feature. They are, however, not used by many higher skilled players as they are just too expensive and can be too easily destroyed because they are stationary. I understand they can build them just like grens, but it shouldn't be reflected in the price in this case. As Soviets you don't need to retreat your units to build healing.

Pios cost more because they do more. It's not negotiable. Do more= cost more do less =cost less pios do more = cost more CE do less = cost less. There's more to the game than JUST repairs late game.

In my opinion they simply don't do more. They are just different. The price should be the same or you destabilise lategame. A unit so cheap and so useful just shouldn't exist. Maybe if they weren't given extra repair speed after they receive sweepers...

Not that history should dictate balance, but historically Pioneers and Engineers were elite units and had among the highest mortality rates. I think they should be a little bit more badass considering their actual roles.

True. I guess that was the idea behind sturmpios for OKW. The result is imo a high level of cheese.

I'm still curious what would be the result of sturmpio vs panzergren duel.

But UKF also got a really cool engineer unit, and blatantly too cheap for what they do, and how they can be upgraded. Their engies price should go up (10mp more is just funny)

I see engineers primarily as healing units for vehicles. To make game sensible they shouldn't be better than mainline infantry, or maybe then they should lose some of those engineering abilities.

Med vehicles confirmed op.

You really need to load the game test if you think that medium vehicles can clear what Ro.E can.

Playing around in cheat mod reveals:

4 gren squads will closely beat 5 charging pioneer squads
3 volksgren squads will easily beat two sturmpioneer sqauds

3 CE squads will easily beat two conscript squads. Averages to about 5-6 CE models remaining.

The only reason you build conscripts over CE is better veterancy bonuses, sandbags, slightly easier micro, and a very small manpower efficiency.

You can easily use CE as mainline infantry though if you so desire. Flamethrowers and mines more than compensate for worse combat veterancy, and once you get to t3 vehicles, which CE fix, are the primary fighting unit.

IMO the only reason CE haven't been nerfed already is because of a gentleman's agreement. Everyone knows unconsciously they're OP, but the game would lose all fun if you actually laid down the 40-50 mines per game soviets can afford.

Nah, because it's not the same having 12 models in 2 squads than having them on 3. What most of cheatmode tests misses is that no one sits their units to fight till death.

Anyone would retreat at 1 model and most people are wary at 2 models.

Please no to invisible demos

Nah, because it's not the same having 12 models in 2 squads than having them on 3. What most of cheatmode tests misses is that no one sits their units to fight till death.

Anyone would retreat at 1 model and most people are wary at 2 models.

We can play a game if you'd like. Most Soviets only have 5 capping squads instead of 7 too. There are advantages and disadvantages. CE models are straight up better than conscript models while being cheaper is the point. No other factions engineers have models better than their mainline.

But they do their engineering jobs just fine. They have different types of mines and explosives - not a big deal - one player prefers minefields+telles, another prefers regular mines. One player likes cqc and more risk because of it, another prefers long ranger squad with less vision.

what you preffer does not dictate balance. the numbers themselves do. pios do more. pios cost more.
tell me, objectivly, if combat engies had increased line of sight, would they be better, worse or the same as they are now (no other changes, just increased sight). if CE could build bunkers, would they be better or worse? like i said, no "well buit" just yes or no.

Ability to build sandbags should be given to grens just like it was given to conscripts. Pios can build them and it makes them 'overworked' and makes it more difficult for grens to use those sandbags. The fact that pios not grens build them is actually a nerf to the whole faction. I'd move them to grens immediately but a lot of allied players are afraid of it (but it is ok to them that cons and UKF inf. can build them!)

pios were given the ability to build sandbags years after not having them, for nothing (no accosiated nerf, just gifted the sandbags) thats not a nerf to the faction, thats a buff to teh faction. and regardless of how you think sandbags should be allocated, pios have them and it is part of their kit which is included in their cost.

Bukers were supposed to be a faction feature. They are, however, not used by many higher skilled players as they are just too expensive and can be too easily destroyed because they are stationary. I understand they can build them just like grens, but it shouldn't be reflected in the price in this case. As Soviets you don't need to retreat your units to build healing.

except it is part of their kit and thus part of the discussion with them. its something they can do and CE cannot. cons being able to merge is a conscript discussion and a trait that gets brought up when discussing cons as bunkers are for the units that can build them. you cant just decide what is and isnt relevant, thats not how this works. (i assume you mean reinforce and not heal, because outside a few commanders soviet do need to retreat to base to heal)

and i like how you are trying to discount bunkers as a faction feature but arguing against soviet russia being able to field a squad slight cheaper than its superior counterpart...

In my opinion they simply don't do more. They are just different. The price should be the same or you destabilise lategame. A unit so cheap and so useful just shouldn't exist. Maybe if they weren't given extra repair speed after they receive sweepers...

they DO MORE so theY COST MORE. you pay more, you get more. i dont know how you are not understanding this.
im even more confused as to how soviet have always had cheaper cons but now its destabilizing the late game, 6 years in. 30mp does not go that far. its a con and a half.

We can play a game if you'd like. Most Soviets only have 5 capping squads instead of 7 too. There are advantages and disadvantages. CE models are straight up better than conscript models while being cheaper is the point. No other factions engineers have models better than their mainline.

There's no need. If CE spam was OP, we would had seen it in mass in either tournaments or high lvl games. Because, it's not like this didn't happen in the past with either Ro. Engis or RET.

You could argue that top players don't know or want to play like that, but i'll say we have enough Cpt Sprice type of players to replicate this kind of spam strats whenever they get out of hand.


Regarding the test, there are several issues.
Volk vs SP: not sure why u make them face 3 Volks vs 2 SP when the squad is 300mp and Volks 260mp) A closer comparison would be 2v2 and SP stomp Volks.

CE vs Con: no reason for either squad to push as they have the same weapon.
CE they are more expensive to reinforce (21 vs 20) and occupy more popcap (15 vs 14). 1 per squad and 1 per model.
170 * 3 = 510 vs 480 = 240 * 2

Anyway, who cares if CE can beat Conscripts, when you will never play Soviets vs soviets in automatch. Something you forgot about why CE is not a thing as well, is because any light vehicle rush will push you back to base.

PD: CE are completely fine. No other factions have Conscripts as their main line infantry.

There's no need. If CE spam was OP, we would had seen it in mass in either tournaments or high lvl games. Because, it's not like this didn't happen in the past with either Ro. Engis or RET.

You could argue that top players don't know or want to play like that, but i'll say we have enough Cpt Sprice type of players to replicate this kind of spam strats whenever they get out of hand.


Regarding the test, there are several issues.
Volk vs SP: not sure why u make them face 3 Volks vs 2 SP when the squad is 300mp and Volks 260mp) A closer comparison would be 2v2 and SP stomp Volks.

CE vs Con: no reason for either squad to push as they have the same weapon.
CE they are more expensive to reinforce (21 vs 20) and occupy more popcap (15 vs 14). 1 per squad and 1 per model.
170 * 3 = 510 vs 480 = 240 * 2

Anyway, who cares if CE can beat Conscripts, when you will never play Soviets vs soviets in automatch. Something you forgot about why CE is not a thing as well, is because any light vehicle rush will push you back to base.

PD: CE are completely fine. No other factions have Conscripts as their main line infantry.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Show me some high level games where CE spam gets stomped if you think it's non-viable. I'd argue the reason you don't see it that often is because 'that's not how you play the game' rather than ineffectiveness.

I'm not familiar with OKW and thought SP were a tad more expensive. Do you think sturm pios are more cost effective than volksgren?

I didn't push CE vs conscripts.

A 5% difference in reinforce cost and 7.5% difference in pop is kinda splitting hairs when CE have a 10% increase in RA.

I compared CE to conscripts because they're in the same army. There's a wide variation in mainlines, but they're generally agreed to be balanced against each other. If CE are on par with conscripts it follows they'll be on par with the other mainlines despite more varied stats.

3 CE will beat two of any mainline infantry except for charging rifleman in open cover, and max range infantry sections if you want to go down this road, but your interest seems to be muddying the waters rather than taking a critical look at things.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Show me some high level games where CE spam gets stomped if you think it's non-viable. I'd argue the reason you don't see it that often is because 'that's not how you play the game' rather than ineffectiveness.

I'm not familiar with OKW and thought SP were a tad more expensive. Do you think sturm pios are more cost effective than volksgren?

I didn't push CE vs conscripts.

A 5% difference in reinforce cost and 7.5% difference in pop is kinda splitting hairs when CE have a 10% increase in RA.

I compared CE to conscripts because they're in the same army. There's a wide variation in mainlines, but they're generally agreed to be balanced against each other. If CE are on par with conscripts it follows they'll be on par with the other mainlines despite more varied stats.

3 CE will beat two of any mainline infantry except for charging rifleman in open cover, and max range infantry sections if you want to go down this road, but your interest seems to be muddying the waters rather than taking a critical look at things.

I've never seen a CE spam build used by a high level player even as a joke. You would think this wouldn't be for any gentlemanly reasons as cheese strats have a habit of making their way onto youtube regardless of perceived fairness.

Why don't you try a CE spam strat then and show us a replay of it in action? Regardless of any minute 0 efficiency compared to conscripts by virtue of using the same weapon and having better RA, you should know CE receive no RA buffs with vet and only marginal accuracy and cooldown bonuses. By the time any enemy infantry gets vetted, much less light vehicles hit the field, CE would be basically hopeless; a build centered around them would fall apart almost instantly.

SPios are more or less the same way to an extreme; they have great DPS and even get an AT package. But in the end they scale worse than Volksgrens and bleed harder to boot.

Would you. Consider seeing up defensive positions engineer jobs? Because pios can do that and CE cannot. Sandbags as well as bunkers (yes they cost extra but it's an option) and mines that can OHK light vehicles. Pios cost more because they do more. It's not negotiable. Do more= cost more do less =cost less pios do more = cost more CE do less = cost less. There's more to the game than JUST repairs late game.

The sandbag argument doesn't hold water.

The mainlines that don't get sandbags/green cover have it on their engineers instead. Pios having sandbags instead of the mainline is a serious disadvantage, and you're misunderstanding it as an advantage. It's the same case for Rifles, except that Rear Echelons have significantly less duties - no repairs, no base-building, no anti-garrison (disadvantage actually).

I've always found it necessary to get a relatively early second pio since repairs/wires/mines/sweeping/cover building/anti-garrison/base-building duty require 2 pios combined.

I'm quite sure grenadiers would actually start being pretty good if they could build their own sandbags to protect themselves instead of getting roflstomped the moment allied infantry appears.

I've never seen a CE spam build used by a high level player even as a joke. You would think this wouldn't be for any gentlemanly reasons as cheese strats have a habit of making their way onto youtube regardless of perceived fairness.

Why don't you try a CE spam strat then and show us a replay of it in action? Regardless of any minute 0 efficiency compared to conscripts by virtue of using the same weapon and having better RA, you should know CE receive no RA buffs with vet and only marginal accuracy and cooldown bonuses. By the time any enemy infantry gets vetted, much less light vehicles hit the field, CE would be basically hopeless; a build centered around them would fall apart almost instantly.

SPios are more or less the same way to an extreme; they have great DPS and even get an AT package. But in the end they scale worse than Volksgrens and bleed harder to boot.

I'm more than happy to play against you https://steamcommunity.com/id/porkloin

But you're just making impossible tasks aren't you...

I'm more than happy to play against you https://steamcommunity.com/id/porkloin

But you're just making impossible tasks aren't you...

How is this an impossible task?

Do you agree with what I said about CEs or not?

I think I demonstrated my points rather clearly and would like to know if you still think differently, and why.

How is this an impossible task?

Do you agree with what I said about CEs or not?

I think I demonstrated my points rather clearly and would like to know if you still think differently, and why.

What's your highest rank, and what rank player do I have to beat for it to be an acceptable replay for you then?