What is the REAL problem with Ost T4?
2 Mar 2020, 19:50 PM
#1
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedThe balance team claims that "popular sentiment" says T4 is not accessible enough so the solution is the make it more accessible. I highly doubt that is the sentiment.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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2 Mar 2020, 19:52 PM
#2
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedGoddamn poll questions didn't show up????
Anyways, I was trying to create a poll to ask whether this was the case.
Anyways, I was trying to create a poll to ask whether this was the case.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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2 Mar 2020, 20:21 PM
#3
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Ask the mods to hide this thread and make one with up to 4 questions. If you have more then ask a mod to make the thread. Can't make a thread with more than 4 questions unless you are a mod.
2 Mar 2020, 20:27 PM
#4
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
The balance team claims that "popular sentiment" says T4 is not accessible enough so the solution is the make it more accessible. I highly doubt that is the sentiment.
Not accessible is very strange considering it's already very cheap to get T4 when you have T3/BP2 as Ostheer.
The problem with Ost T4 is that none of the units are suited for 1v1. In 2v2 the Panzerwerfer is good, Brummbär and Panther are mediocre and overshadowed by Tiger. Ost T4 is meta and strong in 3v3 and 4v4.
2 Mar 2020, 21:07 PM
#5
Posts: 479
I don't necessarily think its the tech cost that is the issue, its the cost/performance of the units in Tier 4 themselves that make them very restrictive outside of 3's and 4's and even then OKW is probably still better in that case, people play Ostheer for caches mainly.
2 Mar 2020, 21:09 PM
#6
Posts: 379 | Subs: 1
I don't necessarily think its the tech cost that is the issue, its the cost/performance of the units in Tier 4 themselves that make them very restrictive outside of 3's and 4's and even then OKW is probably still better in that case, people play Ostheer for caches mainly.
This. T4 is affordable, but what you get out of T4 isn't good enough for what you pay.
I think the Brum will be fine after the patch (though something like +5 Range wouldn't be too bad of a thing to add).
Panther, I said this before, would be fine if it was reliable and had better moving accuracy. It's supposed to be a brawling tank destroyer, but it can't do it because it's moving accuracy makes it too big of a risk to dive due to its cost.
Werfer is garbage. The end.
2 Mar 2020, 22:34 PM
#7
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Werfer is garbage. The end.
Lol no it isn't
T4 should include some kind of bonus for grenadiers and maybe other infantry/team weapons. Maybe move the reinforcement cost reduction that they added in the preview to t4, and make medkits free when the structure is built
Adding more small bonuses to other units is the best route to take imo. Every other final tier in the game provides you with something besides the units it unlocks, except Ost's:
USF: Major
Brits: Hammer/Anvil bonuses
OKW: Flak base
Soviets: 7 man upgrade
Ost: ______
I do agree with more acc. for panther, but it should be a vet 2 bonus
3 Mar 2020, 01:14 AM
#8
Posts: 1794
Only problem is ost players except T4 units to deflect most bullets and roll in to wipe. Hell man, we saved up resources, so they need to be strong - or so they said.
Nevermind T4 has been cheapest to attain ever
Nevermind T4 has been cheapest to attain ever
3 Mar 2020, 01:41 AM
#9
Posts: 960
I don't necessarily think its the tech cost that is the issue, its the cost/performance of the units in Tier 4 themselves
This. T4 is affordable, but what you get out of T4 isn't good enough for what you pay.
I (mostly) agree with these two comments. Access to T4 is fine, but the units in T4 are very, very situational:
T4 Tech - Needs a different focus
The issue wasn't the price of getting to T4, it was the units within. They're all incredibly situational and expensive (the units, not the tech). Reducing the T3 -> T4 cost by 15 fuel isn't going to make these units any better.
1. The panther is still really expensive; the STUG is more viable as a TD, due to its higher DPS and range than the panther. Additionally, if you do save up the 490mp/180f (iirc), you might as well save the extra 190mp/50f and get a Tiger, as that's a much stronger unit. There's also the whole "60 range TD" thing which makes going for a Panther a risky choice.
2. The brummbar is still going to impose a heavy micro-tax, and even then, it's only really good against blobbers. The P4 and Ostwind are simply better choices, since they're cheaper, arrive earlier, and don't require manually firing every shot. Also, axis doesn't need a "bunker buster", either. This update does increase its armor by 20, but I don't think that makes it a better choice (in most cases) than a P4 or Ostwind.
3. The P.Werfer is still going to be situational. It's good against static infantry and support weapons, but because the rockets always take a long time to hit, using it against moving infantry is tricky; you can't use it point-blank like a katyusha or caliope.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
3 Mar 2020, 01:43 AM
#10
Posts: 833
Lol no it isn't
T4 should include some kind of bonus for grenadiers and maybe other infantry/team weapons. Maybe move the reinforcement cost reduction that they added in the preview to t4, and make medkits free when the structure is built
Adding more small bonuses to other units is the best route to take imo. Every other final tier in the game provides you with something besides the units it unlocks, except Ost's:
USF: Major
Brits: Hammer/Anvil bonuses
OKW: Flak base
Soviets: 7 man upgrade
Ost: ______
I do agree with more acc. for panther, but it should be a vet 2 bonus
Ostruppen get lmgs at t4 actually.
The Brit trade off is they have to pick themselves out of their own units. Soviets have very limited med armor.
Ostheer already have rocket arty, the best med tank and panther+brum at the same time. when Brits can only pick between church and comet.
One would have to be very careful with buffs, something like medkits would be fine but five man and lmg could collapse balance.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
3 Mar 2020, 01:48 AM
#11
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Ostruppen get lmgs at t4 actually.
Look over my list again and find mention of anything doctrinal. A bunch of allied doctrinal mediums get unlocked by final tech too
And that unlocks with bp3, not t4 building
something like medkits would be fine but five man and lmg could collapse balance.
I agree, no mention of 5 man lmgs anywhere in my post
3 Mar 2020, 02:51 AM
#12
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
...
Weird brainstorming after couple of beers idea. Not necessarily all to be implemented.
After T4 is been built.
-Pios to 5 man. Reduce squad popcap by 1 to 0 to remain the same as now (it's 5 popcap, 1 per model + 1 on squad).
Non doctrinaly late game they would have a unit which can cap/scout without getting obliterated as well as more easily recrewing support weapons and repair vehicles.
-Reduce popcap on support units/Pio.
Same as before, but in this case Pios goes from 5 to 4 as they remain a 4 model.
MG42/Mortar goes from 6 to 5
Pak40 goes from 7 to 6
Sniper from 9 to 7
Unrelated to the late game on OH.
Bunkers
Cost of construction goes from 150 to 50mp.
MG/Medic upgrade now cost 100mp on top of their munition cost
Now we can MAYBE see people build bunkers as cover AND maybe we can adjust the cost of command post separately.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
3 Mar 2020, 02:53 AM
#13
Posts: 38
I think that the medi-kits in t4 are useless, at that point the enemy already has veteran squads or units which eliminate 2 models of grenadiers almost instantaneously, it makes no sense to use a first aid kit when you have two models left, just escape before you kill the others two remaining models, and in the case of winning the battle you will only have two or three models left in each squad, there is no chance of advancing or staying defending against a counter attack. First aid kits are useful in the early, when you don't have a medical bunker and need to cure a support weapon or rarely a squad.
3 Mar 2020, 05:38 AM
#15
Posts: 833
Weird brainstorming after couple of beers idea. Not necessarily all to be implemented.
After T4 is been built.
-Pios to 5 man. Reduce squad popcap by 1 to 0 to remain the same as now (it's 5 popcap, 1 per model + 1 on squad).
Non doctrinaly late game they would have a unit which can cap/scout without getting obliterated as well as more easily recrewing support weapons and repair vehicles.
-Reduce popcap on support units/Pio.
Same as before, but in this case Pios goes from 5 to 4 as they remain a 4 model.
MG42/Mortar goes from 6 to 5
Pak40 goes from 7 to 6
Sniper from 9 to 7
Unrelated to the late game on OH.
Bunkers
Cost of construction goes from 150 to 50mp.
MG/Medic upgrade now cost 100mp on top of their munition cost
Now we can MAYBE see people build bunkers as cover AND maybe we can adjust the cost of command post separately.
Team weapons and engies could probably use a pop reduction across the board, then stuff like shrek sturms would be seen for once rather than volk spam.
Brits suffer too when all those +1 bolstered squads reach the late game and you're effectively punished for keeping bolstered squads alive as you can hardly fit in any late game armor.
Meanwhile USF look at everyone else and laugh
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
4 Mar 2020, 02:50 AM
#16
Posts: 356
t4 units simply aren't worth it. I've tried it in 1v1 games that go really long. What ends up happening is you're pop-capped with a panther and a brumbar vs 3 t-34-85s or something. Even with a 1000 manpower in the bank you'll still just get whittled down since you can't field enough units for a critical mass.
Is a panther better than two stugs? No not really but it costs almost as much. Is a brumbar better than two ostwinds? No not really, and while the costs are a little closer it's not really that much better.
The only situation where t4 is "good" is when you're up to your eyeballs in fuel i.e. team games where the economy is heavily inflated.
Is a panther better than two stugs? No not really but it costs almost as much. Is a brumbar better than two ostwinds? No not really, and while the costs are a little closer it's not really that much better.
The only situation where t4 is "good" is when you're up to your eyeballs in fuel i.e. team games where the economy is heavily inflated.
4 Mar 2020, 04:48 AM
#17
Posts: 731
Weird brainstorming after couple of beers idea. Not necessarily all to be implemented.
After T4 is been built.
-Pios to 5 man. Reduce squad popcap by 1 to 0 to remain the same as now (it's 5 popcap, 1 per model + 1 on squad).
Non doctrinaly late game they would have a unit which can cap/scout without getting obliterated as well as more easily recrewing support weapons and repair vehicles.
-Reduce popcap on support units/Pio.
Same as before, but in this case Pios goes from 5 to 4 as they remain a 4 model.
MG42/Mortar goes from 6 to 5
Pak40 goes from 7 to 6
Sniper from 9 to 7
Unrelated to the late game on OH.
Bunkers
Cost of construction goes from 150 to 50mp.
MG/Medic upgrade now cost 100mp on top of their munition cost
Now we can MAYBE see people build bunkers as cover AND maybe we can adjust the cost of command post separately.
Reduce pop is interesting……
4 Mar 2020, 04:55 AM
#18
Posts: 1794
Reduce pop is interesting……
For ukf..yes
There is nothing wrong with ost t4 anyway. Play slower and vet up your units and they become tank wall,, especially cancerous in 4v4.
Let's play 3 jackson vs 3 panthers, you be usf. I be ost. Let see if you whine about Jackson anymore
4 Mar 2020, 06:24 AM
#19
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Unrelated to the late game on OH.
Bunkers
Cost of construction goes from 150 to 50mp.
MG/Medic upgrade now cost 100mp on top of their munition cost
Now we can MAYBE see people build bunkers as cover AND maybe we can adjust the cost of command post separately.
I've wanted something like this for Ost for a long time. Would be great to be able to build more bunkers for just cover purposes. Moving the costs around is great way to do that
4 Mar 2020, 07:06 AM
#20
Posts: 1794
Ost bunker need 1-2 pop cost. Cancer in 4v4
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