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Raketens are too good

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28 Mar 2020, 18:24 PM
#161
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

If I were to change the Rak I would like to try out 6 men and no retreat. I dont think its possible to add a gunshield, but Im no modder
28 Mar 2020, 18:39 PM
#162
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

If I were to change the Rak I would like to try out 6 men and no retreat. I dont think its possible to add a gunshield, but Im no modder

IMO it would make it too similar to other at guns. Also 6 men for latewar German army would be meh. Retreat is a cool feature and why not retain it? It all comes down to adequate pricing.
28 Mar 2020, 20:26 PM
#163
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Every time AT gun shield is brought up: unless you magically change the hitbox to be something bigger, it won't block shit. The cover for the crew bugs out most of the time and i believe that other AT guns are more survivable is because the shell of enemy tanks ACTUALLY HIT the AT gun itself.
28 Mar 2020, 20:37 PM
#164
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Every time AT gun shield is brought up: unless you magically change the hitbox to be something bigger, it won't block shit. The cover for the crew bugs out most of the time and i believe that other AT guns are more survivable is because the shell of enemy tanks ACTUALLY HIT the AT gun itself.


The gun shield does provide heavy cover AOE reduction under certain circumstances (enemy throwing a grenade from a certain angle, and I assume this works the same for ballistic weapons) and the gun crew itself getting cover from the gun shield means that the other crew members will spread out, while the Raketen's crew will bunch up on terrain cover. So even if it's mostly bugged, having a gun shield does provide a significant enough advantage to weigh into the discussion.
28 Mar 2020, 21:05 PM
#165
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



The gun shield does provide green cover AOE reduction under certain circumstances (enemy throwing a grenade from a certain angle, and I assume this works the same for ballistic weapons) and the gun crew itself getting cover means that the other crew members will spread out, while the Raketen's crew will bunch up on terrain cover. So even if it's mostly bugged, having a gun shield does provide a significant enough advantage to weigh into the discussion.


I didn't say it never works, but it does bug out more frequently than it should. The "certain" angle varies, but i just had the game open and throwing nades frontally while the AT gun is at neutral position (either aiming dead center or after reposition) and killing the crew (tested with 2 models).

Giving it a "gun shield" will not make the raketen as survivable as other AT guns, specially against tanks. That's my point. For everyone, just open the game, and compare them side by side with all other AT guns.

28 Mar 2020, 23:02 PM
#166
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 15:19 PMKatitof


Because 6 man weapon teams are standard setting of all factions and it makes perfect sense to compare everything to that.....


The main-problem is, beside of Brummbär, allii mediums and AI-tanks are better versus AI (crews) than Ost's + OKW's line-up.

So, even if Alliis get the Püppchen, it performs better versus Achse than versus Allii. xDD

28 Mar 2020, 23:26 PM
#167
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



The main-problem is, beside of Brummbär, allii mediums and AI-tanks are better versus AI (crews) than Ost's + OKW's line-up.

So, even if Alliis get the Püppchen, it performs better versus Achse than versus Allii. xDD


So do we normalize armour AI? No! Give more crew members!
Upgrade pintle mgs to be more reliable and help account for larger allied squads. Sherman's would retain but can be tuned via rof to have less impact than the pintle 42s.
Armour alignment has been a long time coming and heavies are seeing it now. Mediums next I hope
29 Mar 2020, 13:38 PM
#168
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



The gun shield does provide heavy cover AOE reduction under certain circumstances (enemy throwing a grenade from a certain angle, and I assume this works the same for ballistic weapons) and the gun crew itself getting cover from the gun shield means that the other crew members will spread out, while the Raketen's crew will bunch up on terrain cover. So even if it's mostly bugged, having a gun shield does provide a significant enough advantage to weigh into the discussion.

True and nice to have it all explained :) Yet, the retreat function on its own provides a hell of extra funcionality and can make the at more survivable. Additionally 5 men volks can recrew it really quickly. Most players just overextend it and it gets focused fired and then they complain. What should be looked at might be the reason why ZiS should have 6 men and Pak 4 men crews. It could be so much better to make both have the crew of 5 for many reasons.
30 Mar 2020, 12:29 PM
#169
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143


True and nice to have it all explained :) Yet, the retreat function on its own provides a hell of extra funcionality and can make the at more survivable. Additionally 5 men volks can recrew it really quickly. Most players just overextend it and it gets focused fired and then they complain. What should be looked at might be the reason why ZiS should have 6 men and Pak 4 men crews. It could be so much better to make both have the crew of 5 for many reasons.



The retreat function is ok, I think not being able to move backwards and having no gun shield is a bad combination.

I like your 5 man AT gun suggestion.
30 Mar 2020, 12:36 PM
#170
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


The retreat function is ok, I think not being able to move backwards and having no gun shield is a bad combination.

True. It can get you killed if you linger on a tiny bit too long before retreat. With rak one needs to retreat slightly earlier than you would with infantry units. But now thanks to increased range it should be less of an issue.

I like your 5 man AT gun suggestion.

Thanks. I'd implement it asap as ZiS is just too potent and Pak gets decrewed too easily compared to other ATs, especially in relation to its price and in connection with 4 men ost inf squads.
30 Mar 2020, 19:37 PM
#171
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500



Correct.

Higher than PAK43/88. Higher than Allied 17 Pounder Emplacement.


Am I being trolled? Do you guys actually look this up? I mean, ballistics is a huge field of it's own but it doesn't take long to look the penetration numbers up and see this is wrong.
31 Mar 2020, 01:38 AM
#172
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785



The raketenwerfer is literally a Panzershrek on wheels. No difference besides the carriage, which one could argue made it more accurate at range and easier to load. It also entered service in 1943, only one year after the 6pdr/M1 anti tank gun used by UKF and USF respectively.
31 Mar 2020, 10:26 AM
#173
avatar of Sandzibar

Posts: 10



The gun shield does provide heavy cover AOE reduction under certain circumstances (enemy throwing a grenade from a certain angle, and I assume this works the same for ballistic weapons) and the gun crew itself getting cover from the gun shield means that the other crew members will spread out, while the Raketen's crew will bunch up on terrain cover. So even if it's mostly bugged, having a gun shield does provide a significant enough advantage to weigh into the discussion.


So you cant fix the Rak being killed reliably by the thing its supposed to counter then? that's a shame. What about changing the crew to have a smaller size modifier so they are slightly harder to hit/insta decrew?

Are you able to fix the bug where you cant allow the Rak to move when cloaked (ie have it decloak, move, recloak) like camo'd ZIS/Paks can?
31 Mar 2020, 11:55 AM
#174
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

Speaking of increased durability for AT gun squads behind the shield - yesterday I had an M1 57mm just waltz up to a (spotted) bunker, fire three shots off and reverse back without being taken out.

Meanwhile in Incendiary MG42 firing the whole time ?????????????

Would never get away with that with the Rak.
31 Mar 2020, 12:02 PM
#175
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Speaking of increased durability for AT gun squads behind the shield - yesterday I had an M1 57mm just waltz up to a (spotted) bunker, fire three shots off and reverse back without being taken out.

Meanwhile in Incendiary MG42 firing the whole time ?????????????

Would never get away with that with the Rak.


Well, go and walk up with rak against upgraded firing position and see for yourself?

These two are suppression area denial, they do nothing damage wise, unless you're pinned for a long time and accuracy penalty kicks in.

Hell, because of how suppression works and the fact that rak doesn't get penalized by it, rak will take little to no damage at all while suppressed for long enough time to kill FP.
31 Mar 2020, 12:19 PM
#176
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2020, 12:02 PMKatitof


Well, go and walk up with rak against upgraded firing position and see for yourself?

These two are suppression area denial, they do nothing damage wise, unless you're pinned for a long time and accuracy penalty kicks in.

That is incorrect both bunker do have good DPS in range 35. The reason they seem to do little damage is because of the suppression modifiers.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2020, 12:02 PMKatitof

Hell, because of how suppression works and the fact that rak doesn't get penalized by it, rak will take little to no damage at all while suppressed for long enough time to kill FP.

Again this is incorrect RW does not get suppressed and takes full damage.


Having said that I will repeat my suggestion that ATGs should do less damage to all buildings.
31 Mar 2020, 12:20 PM
#177
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2020, 12:02 PMKatitof


Well, go and walk up with rak against upgraded firing position and see for yourself?

These two are suppression area denial, they do nothing damage wise, unless you're pinned for a long time and accuracy penalty kicks in.

Hell, because of how suppression works and the fact that rak doesn't get penalized by it, rak will take little to no damage at all while suppressed for long enough time to kill FP.


I feel that the Incendiary (H)MG42 you know and the one I know, are very different things. The situation described earlier made worse by the fact that the AT gun was within the mid-range for the HMG42.

The bunker may never have fired, but the Inc (H)MG42 would have vaporised a Rak.
31 Mar 2020, 12:26 PM
#178
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



I feel that the Incendiary (H)MG42 you know and the one I know, are very different things. The situation described earlier made worse by the fact that the AT gun was within the mid-range for the HMG42.

The bunker may never have fired, but the Inc (H)MG42 would have vaporised a Rak.


Oh, I wasn't aware bunkers have incendiary rounds, that changes everything! :romeoHype:
31 Mar 2020, 12:28 PM
#179
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2020, 12:26 PMKatitof


Oh, I wasn't aware bunkers have incendiary rounds, that changes everything! :romeoHype:


Inb4 I thought it was reasonable to assume people could understand there was an MG42 weapons team with the bunker by mentioning Incendiary MG42...…silly me.

Now I remember why I stopped posting in 2015. Some stupid troll over the colour orange.
31 Mar 2020, 18:07 PM
#180
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



So you cant fix the Rak being killed reliably by the thing its supposed to counter then? that's a shame. What about changing the crew to have a smaller size modifier so they are slightly harder to hit/insta decrew?

Are you able to fix the bug where you cant allow the Rak to move when cloaked (ie have it decloak, move, recloak) like camo'd ZIS/Paks can?


The vehicles which hit using accuracy are the exception not the norm.
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