Tank Destroyer Poll

M36 being buffed? it also went from 240 damage to 160, sight bonus removed, popcap +2 and +20 fuel.
Survivability has been buffed at cost of damage spike. Do you really consider Mr.Smith who did the job an USF fanboy?

Don't you remember the shit storm we had every time a wheraboo forum's fighter had a bad RNG luck vs Jackson back in the days? The same shit storm we have today when the same wheraboo forum's fighters have a bad RNG luck vs the same Jackson.

Your vision of the M36 is biaised when you compare it to the Su-85, where is the Katy, where are the many mines you spend you munition on, where is the super cheap T34, the -I don't need ammo to pen you- zig gun, where are the half of doctrines with the -Out of jail card- Button to save your Su-85's ass from flanking etc... Where is the equivalence of the Su-76 when you don't have 145 fuel in bank for the M36?

Seriously, you can't be serious comparing both units in a vacuum. Not you please, leave it for Vipper and his kind. M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.
I'm all for changing it, reducing M36 potential and giving USF late game more balance but the last +5 fuel change the balance team made let me think there is little to be done or Relic is vetoing any proposed solution.

We could rollback the 600 health back to 480. And it's armor down to Stuart level.
... We could also bring back it's dps 160 back to 240 dmg

Popcap -2 Fuel Cost -20
(Note the Panther got a Health buff since)

So 12 pop, 125 fuel, 240 dps Jackson with less health.

just nerf it bit by bit, until you find the sweet spot (like they did with JLI). Do it as early as possible so changes can be done by the next iteration of the patches. Just start off with a moving accuracy nerf to 0.5, if that's not enough then maybe remove vehicle crews for Jackson too and continue on and give time for testing because the jackson probably is one of the most delicate units in the game, especially for USF.

just nerf it bit by bit, until you find the sweet spot (like they did with JLI). Do it as early as possible so changes can be done by the next iteration of the patches. Just start off with a moving accuracy nerf to 0.5, if that's not enough then maybe remove vehicle crews for Jackson too and continue on and give time for testing because the jackson probably is one of the most delicate units in the game, especially for USF.

JLI are not in a sweet spot imo, they are still too strong in infantry battles. Its just nobody abuses them atm cause... tiger/ falls

i dont recommend nerfing usf main features, vehicle crews and good moving accuracy, there have to be other ways of dealing with it. As said, i think a toggle ability is the best idea ive heard so far.

JLI are not in a sweet spot imo, they are still too strong in infantry battles. Its just nobody abuses them atm cause... tiger/ falls

That's the thing with OKW, both Falls and JLI overperform because non-doc LMG Obers exist.

M36 being buffed? it also went from 240 damage to 160, sight bonus removed, popcap +2 and +20 fuel.
Survivability has been buffed at cost of damage spike. Do you really consider Mr.Smith who did the job an USF fanboy?

Don't you remember the shit storm we had every time a wheraboo forum's fighter had a bad RNG luck vs Jackson back in the days? The same shit storm we have today when the same wheraboo forum's fighters have a bad RNG luck vs the same Jackson.

Your vision of the M36 is biaised when you compare it to the Su-85, where is the Katy, where are the many mines you spend you munition on, where is the super cheap T34, the -I don't need ammo to pen you- zig gun, where are the half of doctrines with the -Out of jail card- Button to save your Su-85's ass from flanking etc... Where is the equivalence of the Su-76 when you don't have 145 fuel in bank for the M36?

Seriously, you can't be serious comparing both units in a vacuum. Not you please, leave it for Vipper and his kind. M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.
I'm all for changing it, reducing M36 potential and giving USF late game more balance but the last +5 fuel change the balance team made let me think there is little to be done or Relic is vetoing any proposed solution.

Well said! I also like to point out that late game AT guns for USF are a joke when Panzerwerfers are on the field and you bleed MP like hell. There is no other option for USF unless the entire T4 is revamped and more units are added.

Also why do we need the P4 to perform well vs Jackson? P4 can also bleed man power vs infantry as well. Multi role tank vs hard counter TD?

How about making the M36 Jackson like it used to be?
Less health (480), 12 pop, less armor, 125 fuel

That way, the Panzer 4 can destroy it reliably when at range.
Currently, Jackson was buffed to 600 health, improved armor. I never understood why

Tbh now that the rak can't creep in and wipe it out I think reducing its health slightly could work but I would sooner it be refined as a heavy TD and stock medium AT for usf be shored up.

I really think that super zooks on officers would be a good change, one that can't really be exploited and makes officers a bit more. The excuse for no AT would be gone as officers are there if you like em or not.

Also why do we need the P4 to perform well vs Jackson? P4 can also bleed man power vs infantry as well. Multi role tank vs hard counter TD?

Why do generalist tanks perform well against su85s, fireflies, jp4s, pumas, stugs, elefant and Jagdtiger? Generalist mediums can fight infantry as well. Multirole tanks vs hard counter TDs?

Also why can tanks kill at guns? Tank vs hard counter?
Why infantry kill AI specialist infantry?

Unit composition isn't the only factor. One should be punished for using them poorly and taking risks should be rewarded. Catching a TD out of position should yield reward.

What's wrong with Jackson's overwhelming P4?

Jackson is a TD and a more expensive unit than the P4

It's just absurd to compare p4 to jackson without any AI.

If your opponent's TD is strong, you can push your opponent out of infantry fights and smash your opponent's TD with anti-tank guns and grenades Panzerfaust.

Jackson's slaughter of the PZ4 is no problem at all.
It's the fault of the ost user who didn't check Jackson through the infantry to prevent that from happening.

Do you not know the Grenadier + PAK combination?
Do you have a Pz4 and can you lose it in an infantry battle?

This stupid whining, the more the article is written, the more the balance will collapse and the strategy of the game will fade.


yes, L2P issue not TD

We could rollback the 600 health back to 480. And it's armor down to Stuart level.
... We could also bring back it's dps 160 back to 240 dmg

Popcap -2 Fuel Cost -20
(Note the Panther got a Health buff since)

So 12 pop, 125 fuel, 240 dps Jackson with less health.

Yes! I loved the old Jackson, when microed properly it was an utter machine.
Imagine 3-shotting P4s and 4 shotting Panthers, delicious. Stug E? 2 hits and its gone XD
I'm pretty sure the "more health less damage" was for the benefit of medium/lighter vehicles
Not sure if going back is will help.

Yes! I loved the old Jackson, when microed properly it was an utter machine.
Imagine 3-shotting P4s and 4 shotting Panthers, delicious. Stug E? 2 hits and its gone XD
I'm pretty sure the "more health less damage" was for the benefit of medium/lighter vehicles
Not sure if going back is will help.

Your stat are wrong, these are the changes to M36

M36 Jackson
Show Spoiler

The damage was reduced but the ROF was increased and so was penetration.
the m36 could not kill a PzIV with 3 shot unless using HVAP.

Also why do we need the P4 to perform well vs Jackson? P4 can also bleed man power vs infantry as well. Multi role tank vs hard counter TD?

The SU-85 and JPIV are casemates. It's slow, has poor maneuverability and its turret is locked forward.

This forces to it to adopt a defensive playstyle and attack from range with support, as anything that gets behind it can kill it.


The Firefly follows a similar logic. It has a turret, but it turns so slowly it might as well be a case mate. Combine that with its slow rate of fire and it'll lose a close range fight with a faster, cheaper, more versatile medium tank.

So, once again, it adopts a defensive playstyle and attacks from range with support.


The Jackson has 640 HP, a turret with decent rotation, a good fire rate and good moving accuracy.
This means it can dive to secure kills and take down medium tanks in a brawl.

This isn't something the other three 60 range tank destroyers can do. Combine that with it unaccountably having the best penetration (imo that should have gone to the slow firing Firefly) and it's no wonder the thing's an endless balance headache.

For the medium tank vs tank destroyer balance the other factions have to work, the Jackson needs some sort of disadvantage at close range. A 160 HP reduction and a corresponding drop in fuel cost is one way to do that.

The damage was reduced but the ROF was increased and so was penetration.
the m36 could not kill a PzIV with 3 shot unless using HVAP.

So what you are saying is that Jackson could kill P4 in 3 shots.

So what you are saying is that Jackson could kill P4 in 3 shots.

Yep. And the Panzer IV could kill it in three shots right back.

A 160 HP reduction and a corresponding drop in fuel cost is one way to do that.

I still think people will complain about P4 vs Jackson match up because the ROF, accuracy and mobility is untouched. From what I remember, Jackson HP buff was due to large game mode players being super frustrated with glass cannon of late game USF and the inability to chase down Panthers or plan grand offensive vs elephants. I am talking about strictly from 3 v 3 and 4 v 4 perspectives and playing USF feels a bit more competitive in these game modes.

Keep in mind more people play 3 v 3 and 4 v 4s and P4 vs Jackson match up is not really a problem.

From what I remember, Jackson HP buff was due to large game mode players being super frustrated with glass cannon of late game USF and the inability to chase down Panthers or plan grand offensive vs elephants.

If so, why didn't the SU-85 and Firefly get the same treatment?

If so, why didn't the SU-85 and Firefly get the same treatment?

Soviets that are heavy commander reliant have options like mark target, T-34/85s and IS2s. British have comet tanks.

USF - well at that time only Jackson.

Soviets that are heavy commander reliant have options like mark target, T-34/85s and IS2s. British have comet tanks.

USF - well at that time only Jackson.

Removing Soviet commander reliance has been a balance goal since the Penal Troops rework. The Comet was a meme up until the last patch.

So what you are saying is that Jackson could kill P4 in 3 shots.

No what I am saying is that description of trade off "more health less damage" is inaccurate. The M36 overall was buffed.

If so, why didn't the SU-85 and Firefly get the same treatment?

Because Jackson dives is the only stock USF option to fight heavy tanks.

Soviets have T34/76 rams.

UKF has Churchill with smoke and Comets/Cromwells with smoke shells.

Because Jackson dives is the only stock USF option to fight heavy tanks.

Soviets have T34/76 rams.

UKF has Churchill with smoke and Comets/Cromwells with smoke shells.

Tell me more about how you kill heavy tanks with smoke.