jackson armor nerf

Jackson need nerf then maybe finnaly usf players will use shermans and zooks as AT option.

Or the balance team will finally end the M1 AT meme and bring it in line with other AT.

Or the balance team will finally end the M1 AT meme and bring it in line with other AT.

So you want to nerf the M1 ATG? Because it's already the best ATG in COH2, it's ridiculous when you feed it some muni and even without HVAP and take aim counters LVs best out of all ATGs while costing 270 MP, even less than Raketenwerfer.

The only ATG that comes close is Zis3 because of stupid barrage ability.

So you want to nerf the M1 ATG? Because it's already the best ATG in COH2, it's ridiculous when you feed it some muni and counters LVs best out of all ATGs while costing 270 MP, even less than Raketenwerfer.

The only ATG that comes close is Zis3 because of stupid barrage ability.

No, I KNOW it’s amazing, but every time we discuss the M36 being nerfed somehow we always end up on why the M1 isn’t good enough vs super heavies.

I’m not for nerfing it in line with others, I’m actually a big fan of it and I always use it as USF, but if I have to pick between current situation and balanced Jackson with regular M1 then I think the latter is better.

That is unless the armour nerf goes through, that’s the best solution. And maybe the snare idea though I doubt they’d do that lol

So you want to nerf the M1 ATG? Because it's already the best ATG in COH2, it's ridiculous when you feed it some muni and even without HVAP and take aim counters LVs best out of all ATGs while costing 270 MP, even less than Raketenwerfer.

The only ATG that comes close is Zis3 because of stupid barrage ability.

yep i guess nerfing m1 and Jackson will be enough as i said usf still have strong at options like shermans stuart shock shells and zooks

Wasnt Jackson's armor was buffed so USF player can chase Panthers?

Not, health increased from 480hp to 640hp. As Panther from 800hp to 960hp.

Panther can bounce USF & Brit ATgun, even Zook and Piat on front. With ATgun pen 170 and Zook Piat pen 130 on Panther 260armor.

Jackson can not chase Panther with their 130armor from Axis ATgun 190pen & Shreck 180pen.

Someone said about 60 range stug i like it but his canon must deal 120 dmg per shot like su76

Would be fair with more pen then.

Edit: I also think that Jackson should get less pen, HEAT should become non-vet so it gets any sence.

Would be fair with more pen then.

Edit: I also think that Jackson should get less pen, HEAT should become non-vet so it gets any sence.

I would take it the other way around if you ask me.

Increase Pen, decrease rate of fire.

Better performance against heavies, even at Vet0, worse against mediums and Pumas

It already does. A well timed Panther dive can easily kill a Jackson on most occasions.

I'd agree with you in 1v1s, but in 2v2+ this just isn't the case due to numbers. It's pretty common to see USF players with 2-3 M36s in team-games, which means up to 12 M36s in total. A panther just can't dive that - neither can a bunch of panthers.

Additionally, Axis (ost in particular, imo) is much more reliant on vehicles as AI than most other factions, which means less pop-cap is available for spamming panthers. Most games I simply don't have the room for more than 2.

I mean if we made the Jackson's armor 90-100, that would give it really good pen chances at all ranges?

Jackson also has a larger than average target size iirc, and the pumas vet 1 ability gives it a decent chance against most t4 units. If the armor nerf went through i think that would be a good spot

I could be overplaying the target size difference though, i trust your intuition on the accuracy point more than mine

The problem with the puma isn't the pen, it's everything else. The puma is simply an awful vehicle for chasing other fast vehicles:

1. Low accuracy at max range. At 60 range, it has 28.6% less chance to hit than the M36 (when both are stationary).

2. Low moving accuracy (0.5) means you're going to miss a lot, or be forced to 'stop and start' a lot, which allows for the enemy to eventually get out of range. The M36 has a 0.75 moving accuracy modifier.

3. Low damage. This one is arguable due to RoF, but not so much once you factor in accuracy. 120 damage just isn't that much against a 640hp tank when you have trouble hitting it.

4. It has horrible turret rotation (for an LV), so corners or even just flanking it are very viable counters. There are some medium AI-tanks and other LVs with nearly 4x faster rotation.

5. Awful pathing. I'm not sure if its just confirmation bias, but the puma seems to get stuck (or turn randomly) on just about everything when its chasing stuff.

6. Low armor. At 25/12.5 armor, the puma takes damage from just about everything; combined with 400hp, that's not great for diving.

7. Availability. The puma isn't available to OST unless you pick the "mobile defense" doc, which is incredibly unpopular now (it was never picked in WCS). It also forces OKW to go mech-truck to counter USF's late game, which either means the med-truck becomes even less popular than it currently is, or mech becomes a required back-tech in USF games.

So you want to nerf the M1 ATG? Because it's already the best ATG in COH2, it's ridiculous when you feed it some muni

No, I KNOW it’s amazing, but every time we discuss the M36 being nerfed somehow we always end up on why the M1 isn’t good enough vs super heavies.

Most people don't consider abilities into base performance, that's probably why people ask for the M1-ATG to be buffed.

It would be nice if the disparity wasn't so massive between AP and normal modes, but this would require a fair bit of a redesign on the M1.

I would take it the other way around if you ask me.

Increase Pen, decrease rate of fire.

Better performance against heavies, even at Vet0, worse against mediums and Pumas

Sounds also good. Allowes useful support for P4.

Puma v Jackson would really be an interesting dynamic. If micro well the puma would win, but the odds are stacked in the jacksons favor it would be a great option for someone who could pull it off. If the jacksons range and mobility has already not been made use off there's no reason for yet another safety net in place.

1. Low accuracy at max range. At 60 range, it has 28.6% less chance to hit than the M36 (when both are stationary).

2. Low moving accuracy (0.5) means you're going to miss a lot, or be forced to 'stop and start' a lot, which allows for the enemy to eventually get out of range. The M36 has a 0.75 moving accuracy modifier.

3. Low damage. This one is arguable due to RoF, but not so much once you factor in accuracy. 120 damage just isn't that much against a 640hp tank when you have trouble hitting it.

4. It has horrible turret rotation (for an LV), so corners or even just flanking it are very viable counters. There are some medium AI-tanks and other LVs with nearly 4x faster rotation.

5. Awful pathing. I'm not sure if its just confirmation bias, but the puma seems to get stuck (or turn randomly) on just about everything when its chasing stuff.

6. Low armor. At 25/12.5 armor, the puma takes damage from just about everything; combined with 400hp, that's not great for diving.

7. Availability. The puma isn't available to OST unless you pick the "mobile defense" doc, which is incredibly unpopular now (it was never picked in WCS). It also forces OKW to go mech-truck to counter USF's late game, which either means the med-truck becomes even less popular than it currently is, or mech becomes a required back-tech in USF games.

I already addressed some of those points. I said they should add it to another Commander in Ost and maybe give mobile defense some love. The unit could also be buffed, maybe with better moving acc

You are leaving out the fact that the Puma can self spot, so it should get first shot advantage pretty often. And Jackson turret speed isn't great either

Awful pathing isn't unique to the Puma, I think all the light tanks suffer from it since they can't crush anything besides wooden fences

I already addressed some of those points. I said they should add it to another Commander in Ost and maybe give mobile defense some love. The unit could also be buffed, maybe with better moving acc

You are leaving out the fact that the Puma can self spot, so it should get first shot advantage pretty often. And Jackson turret speed isn't great either

Awful pathing isn't unique to the Puma, I think all the light tanks suffer from it since they can't crush anything besides wooden fences

1. Forcing a commander pick to counter a very common mainline isn't a good idea, imo, especially for a faction that currently relies very heavily on doc abilities/units.

An interesting idea might be to put the puma in the HQ, but locking it behind BP3 (but not the T3 building) - or putting it in the T2 building, but requiring BP3 to be researched in order to build it (to prevent T2 skipping). This might also help Ost in facing LVs, since they're currently extremely vulnerable to fast T70s (and others).

2. The +15 sight the puma has over the M36 is nice, and would come into play a fair bit. However, when chasing/diving, the M36 is going to have vision from other units closer to the front-lines. Additionally, if we're talking about "other bonuses", the M36 has a vehicle crew (self repair, target dropping, pop-avoidance, etc.).

As for turret speed, the M36 and Puma both have a rotation speed of 35, which is also the same as most medium tanks (panther, P4, Sherman, T34/76, etc.). I only brought up rotation because the Puma is an LV, and most LVs have around 100 rotation speed (as do some AI-focused mediums, like the Ostwind).

3. This is a good point, and I agree, it's probably an issue with most/all LVs. The thing is, the M36 doesn't really have these issues, so it's just another advantage it would have in this match up.

1. Forcing a commander pick to counter a very common mainline isn't a good idea, imo, especially for a faction that currently relies very heavily on doc abilities/units.

An interesting idea might be to put the puma in the HQ, but locking it behind BP3 (but not the T3 building) - or putting it in the T2 building, but requiring BP3 to be researched in order to build it (to prevent T2 skipping). This might also help Ost in facing LVs, since they're currently extremely vulnerable to fast T70s (and others).

2. The +15 sight the puma has over the M36 is nice, and would come into play a fair bit. However, when chasing/diving, the M36 is going to have vision from other units closer to the front-lines. Additionally, if we're talking about "other bonuses", the M36 has a vehicle crew (self repair, target dropping, pop-avoidance, etc.).

As for turret speed, the M36 and Puma both have a rotation speed of 35, which is also the same as most medium tanks (panther, P4, Sherman, T34/76, etc.). I only brought up rotation because the Puma is an LV, and most LVs have around 100 rotation speed (as do some AI-focused mediums, like the Ostwind).

3. This is a good point, and I agree, it's probably an issue with most/all LVs. The thing is, the M36 doesn't really have these issues, so it's just another advantage it would have in this match up.

I mean no one is saying it can dominate the m36, or that it should. Presumably you wouldn't dive after a full health Jackson with your puma for 1 on 1 showdown

But with a few tweaks it could be a much more reliable option to use against it

I mean no one is saying it can dominate the m36, or that it should. Presumably you wouldn't dive after a full health Jackson with your puma for 1 on 1 showdown

But with a few tweaks it could be a much more reliable option to use against it

No, of course not, but even diving on a 60% hp M36 would be very risky, which makes the puma a 'not so great' counter.

Also, the tweaks required to make the puma a good counter (or even just viable) would make it incredibly strong against LVs, which would cause a bunch of other issues.

Also, the tweaks required to make the puma a good counter (or even just viable) would make it incredibly strong against LVs, which would cause a bunch of other issues.

Okay but I'm talking about tweaks to both units not just the Puma. Lowering the Jackson's armor does not effect LVs. Moving accuracy would effect it a little

But it's already incredibly strong against LVs?

Also the Jackson use to have much slower reload than it does now and imo the buff that changed that went WAY too far

Again this ignores the puma's vet 1 ability which can hugely turn the tide in any fight it has 1 on 1 with another vehicle

Okay but I'm talking about tweaks to both units not just the Puma. Lowering the Jackson's armor does not effect LVs. Moving accuracy would effect it a little

But it's already incredibly strong against LVs?

Also the Jackson use to have much slower reload than it does now and imo the buff that changed that went WAY too far

/EDIT: The reload times used below are incorrect (by a fair bit). I've corrected them in this post: link

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I would take it the other way around if you ask me.

Increase Pen, decrease rate of fire.

Better performance against heavies, even at Vet0, worse against mediums and Pumas

This, actually. Usf has plenty of good high DPS low pen AT options (zooks, M1), so jackson could be the heavy counter.

The only issue with that is the fact that they'd get dumpstered by panthers for lack of enough DPS since the panther is almost as fast.

The only issue with that is the fact that they'd get dumpstered by panthers for lack of enough DPS since the panther is almost as fast.

Considering the M36 was changed back in December 2017 for this exact reason, lowering the RoF and Increase damage isn't really an option.

The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles.

Cost from 360/125 to 400/140
Damage from 200 to 160
Reload from 5.2/5.8 to 4.375/4.975; does not affect HVAP
HVAP damage decreased from 240 to 200
HVAP penetration from 300/250/220 to 300/280/250
Penetration from 240/220/200 to 260/240/220
Health from 480 to 640
Veterancy 3 reload bonus from 30% to 15%

Snipped for space

Can we stop ignoring the Puma's vet 1 ability? We are literally talking about the puma vs a turreted vehicle, and it has a turret lock ability. That can completely swing a fight against a Jackson and you left it out completely from this analysis

HVAP can certainly change puma to a 2-shot kill, but the reset on the aim/cooldown could fuck it up since the Puma has smoke to break contact and a sight range advantage

Accuracy is the only point that I think is trouble. Could increase the target size of Jackson since most people already think it needs some nerfs against everything anyway. The armor nerf should happen regardless just to at least eliminate the rare p4 deflections

Considering the M36 was changed back in December 2017 for this exact reason, lowering the RoF and Increase damage isn't really an option.

Why? Is it not possible Relic made a mistake? I feel like its pretty common, especially when a unit receives so many changes at once