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82mm vs 120mm Mortar against Flak HQ

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elchino7
12 Jan 2020, 23:23 PM
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Keeping the other thread clean.

Snip
I did test it previously and what i gathered was that they were dead even.
But i can't remember if they were both vet 3 and using non FoW.


So i did retest them.

120mm vs 82mm against Flak HQ
Notes:
-The xp value requirements are 960 and 480 respectively for vet1 and they double at each vet level. Therefore by the time the 120mm is vet 1, the 82mm will be vet 2. By the time it takes to get to vet2 the 82mm will be vet 3.

Test 1:
FoW, Barrage, range 75 (enough that the circle isn't outside the maximum range or dead center of truck is at 75)
Vet 0
82mm wins by 10-5% remaining HP left on Flak HQ.
82mm wins by 5%
Vet 3 vs vet 2
82mm wins by 10%

Test2:
Barrage Without FoW
Vet0
82mm wins by 10-5%
Vet2 vs vet 1
82mm wins by 10-5%

Test 3:
AA,Attack Ground FoW
Vet0
82mm wins by >5%
120mm wins by >5%
82mm wins by 10-5%
82mm wins 10%

Test 4:
AA, Attack Ground Non Fow
82mm by 10%
82mm by 10-5%

Test 5:
3 82mm vs 2 120mm (roughly equivalent mp/popcap cost. 240mp/6p vs 340mp/9p) 720mp/18p vs 680mp/18p
FoW Attack ground
82mm by 50-40%
82mm by 40%

PD: i bias slightly towards the 120mm by starting to set order first (control group and hotkey usage made it less than 1-2s) and let any shot mid air count once any truck was killed.


Previous comment before testing:
Unless the relative safe by using the extended range means something, there's not much difference between using the stock mortar and the 120mm.


Conclusion:
Barrage is way better than attack ground or attack order/auto fire for obvious reasons (better rof and scatter). Unless you can make use of the extended range or that is the difference between using it safely or exposed, the 82mm is clearly better against the 120mm static emplacements (or at least the Flak HQ specifcally if the goal is destroying it).
Attack ground is far better than attack order. Attack order seems to undershoot by quite a big margin, so issuing an attack ground command in the middle or slightly behind it provides far better results. It would also make for a more likely hit on engineers repairing.

Finally, reminder that "Monstrous size has no intrinsic merit, unless inordinate exsanguination be considered a virtue"
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And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
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elchino7
12 Jan 2020, 23:33 PM
#2
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2020, 23:15 PMVipper

Was the test done with auto-fire, attack ground or barrage?


Barrage and attack ground.

I can do a test with attack order but it would be pointless to do so. If you lose LoS with the target the order is cancelled therefore that test will be run without FoW.
My controls weren't working
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And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Stug life
12 Jan 2020, 23:42 PM
#3
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well yes vs building the 120 mm is worse than 82, it has slower rate of sire but same damage

120 mm has 50% more aoe and better spread
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T.R. Stormjäger
12 Jan 2020, 23:46 PM
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If I could rework the 120mm properly I would transition more into a suppression unit where shells land provide suppression. First you'd pick a spot to barrage, a red flare would drop and then your barrage would suppress any blob that walks into the area.

Unfortunately though this kind of cool stuff doesn't go with the coh2 gameplay.
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elchino7
12 Jan 2020, 23:50 PM
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Attack order (right click)

82mm w by +5%
82mm by 10%

I felt that attack order also undershoot so i run the following test:

(82mm vs 120mm attack order) vs same against attack ground.

82mm attack ground slightly further from the center Wins.
120mm AG at 10%
82mm with attack order at 10%
120mm attack order at 25-30%
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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elchino7
12 Jan 2020, 23:51 PM
#6
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2020, 23:42 PMStug life
well yes vs building the 120 mm is worse than 82, it has slower rate of sire but same damage

120 mm has 50% more aoe and better spread


Gonna add to the title that the test was done with Flak HQ in mind as that was the main point of discussion.
Also add a comment i made for the benefit of the 120mm, the range.

PD: worse spread.

My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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distrofio
13 Jan 2020, 03:22 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2020, 23:46 PMT.R. Stormjäger
If I could rework the 120mm properly I would transition more into a suppression unit where shells land provide suppression. First you'd pick a spot to barrage, a red flare would drop and then your barrage would suppress any blob that walks into the area.

Unfortunately though this kind of cool stuff doesn't go with the coh2 gameplay.

Nice idea but it will require other mortar to do actual damage. Unless the 120mm has the same damage+extra suppression
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Vipper
13 Jan 2020, 10:02 AM
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This are the results I had using barrage vs medic truck perpendicular to the building aiming directly on medical cross:


PM-41 3 barrages 30 secs each 12 rounds average damage 49.33 (including 2 misses)
HM-38 2 barrages 50 sec each 12 rounds average damage 70 (no misses)

Average DPS
PM-41 0.59
HM-38 0.7

HM-38 119% better.

Notes for real game scenario:
1) results would be even better for HM-38 if it was firing into FOW and there was more scatter
2) HM-38 would be far more dangerous for any unit trying to repair the truck
3) HM-38 could fire from greater range making even harder for OKW to counterattack
4) HM-38 fire more rounds per barrage requiring less micro
:)
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T.R. Stormjäger
13 Jan 2020, 10:19 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 03:22 AMdistrofio

Nice idea but it will require other mortar to do actual damage. Unless the 120mm has the same damage+extra suppression


I would say same damage as the 82mm mortar and some suppression.

This would probably have to include a general change with small arms fire only preserving the suppression from medium to short range so that you can snipe enemy units from afar with it and keep them suppressed from range 30 with infantry.
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MMX
13 Jan 2020, 10:33 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 10:02 AMVipper

[...]
HM-38 119% better.
[...]


interesting. i had assumed the 82 mm to perform better due to the higher rof and lower scatter / huge hitbox of the target.
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Katitof
13 Jan 2020, 10:37 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 10:33 AMMMX


interesting. i had assumed the 82 mm to perform better due to the higher rof and lower scatter / huge hitbox of the target.

I'd rather focus on the OP tests as they have actually have some data to them outside screaming X is better then Y without anything else.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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elchino7
13 Jan 2020, 19:06 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 10:33 AMMMX


interesting. i had assumed the 82 mm to perform better due to the higher rof and lower scatter / huge hitbox of the target.


The 82mm perform better cause it's more efficient. The only question you have to make yourself is:

-Does the 20 extra range is gonna allow me to do something the normal mortar wouldn't allow me? Say parking it up behind a house and attacking someone who foolishly still tries to forward the medic HQ way to recklessly.
-How much micro can you allow yourself to spend in using mortars. Reminder that mortars are not as good on autofire and require the usage of barrage for them to be really good. All their vet doesn't provide any direct benefit towards auto attack or attack ground.

NEVER build 2 of them. At 340mp and 9pop it's not worth unless you are in a team game and you can rely on your partners to cover for your investment.
If you found yourself not microing mortars, it might be better than the 82mm due to the extra range. Because even if the 82mm will fire more shells more accurately, if it's not firing at all it is not gonna be doing shit.

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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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elchino7
13 Jan 2020, 19:15 PM
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Regarding the mortar itself:

The performance is fine (after all other mortars were nerfed), it's the cost, popcap and veterancy that are not aligned with it.

-Vet value should be 50% more not 100% (this was basically their old value when the mortar had precision strike and 120dmg)

-Cost should go down to 310mp and 8 popcap.


My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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SkysTheLimit
14 Jan 2020, 05:12 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 19:15 PMelchino7
Regarding the mortar itself:
-Cost should go down to 310mp and 8 popcap.


+1
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LoopDloop
14 Jan 2020, 05:47 AM
#15
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120mm does have noticeably better range though doesn't it? Gives a little more options for killing whatever static target you're firing on, but at the cost of being slower to do so I guess. Like, if I don't have a stuka as OKW I don't know how to counter 120mms besides pushing them off the field with an actual push.
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mrgame2
14 Jan 2020, 13:32 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2020, 05:12 AMSkysTheLimit


+1


nope. team game cancer if so.
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elchino7
14 Jan 2020, 17:47 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2020, 05:47 AMLoopDloop
120mm does have noticeably better range though doesn't it? Gives a little more options for killing whatever static target you're firing on, but at the cost of being slower to do so I guess. Like, if I don't have a stuka as OKW I don't know how to counter 120mms besides pushing them off the field with an actual push.


They are slow RNG cannons. They have much worst scatter and rof but they gain 20 more range and higher AoE. What is still weird is that the barrage profile is different from the normal auto fire. It's less lethal per shell (1.1 vs 1.5 AoE near and 3.5 vs 3.0 AoE mid) when you are actually microing it (yeah i know barrage fires faster as all units do).

How do you counter a Pack Howie or ISG using barrages? It's the same concept.

The unit looks scarier than what it does for been 1.5 mortars for cost. The FX are the same as when on release and doesn't reflect the damage it does atm.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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MMX
15 Jan 2020, 06:10 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 10:37 AMKatitof

I'd rather focus on the OP tests as they have actually have some data to them outside screaming X is better then Y without anything else.


fair enough

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 19:15 PMelchino7


-Cost should go down to 310mp and 8 popcap.



this seems fair for a mortar that has a non-doc equivalent and seems to perform only marginally better, if at all. normalizing the aoe profile between barrage and autofire would be a good move, too.
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Raxzero
15 Jan 2020, 14:13 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2020, 17:47 PMelchino7

How do you counter a Pack Howie or ISG using barrages? It's the same concept.


Not exactly the same. Neither ISG nor Pack Howie can retreat. They're easier to kill when pushing/flanking the enemy because of that.

Then again, 120mm has the death loop unlike 82mm, so yeah, it's easier to kill than all other mortars.
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Stug life
15 Jan 2020, 14:27 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2020, 19:15 PMelchino7
Regarding the mortar itself:

The performance is fine (after all other mortars were nerfed), it's the cost, popcap and veterancy that are not aligned with it.

-Vet value should be 50% more not 100% (this was basically their old value when the mortar had precision strike and 120dmg)

-Cost should go down to 310mp and 8 popcap.


seems resonable
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