Vet abilities - SU Tracking

Hi, I'm Troy McClure and you might remember from other simil threads such as:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/31314/vet-abilities--oh-medkit
http://www.coh2.org/topic/23980/overhaul-of-vcoh2-vet-abilities

Today we are gonna talk about tracking and the units using it. Zis-Su76-Su85-ISU152-M42

First of all, is there any reason to have this ability nerf when we have the USF AT gun which has the same ability and it's permanent (yeah, only frontal vision and extended range but it's basically the same principle).

While there are not too much space to work aroud, i think we could change the vet abilities of the units i mentioned before.

Zis: retains it.

Su76: we all know this units needs some real love. While i don't want to make a copypaste of the Axis abilities, why not give it something similar to Aimed shot (not TwP). It has a similar cost to a Puma and in "theory" they have similar roles.
It could have other debuffs than blocking the turret rotation to add some "flavour". There are several crits on the game.

Su85/ISU152: it's weird since they already have focus sight as vet0.
For the Su85: replace it for something like ambush cammouflage. While cautious movement from the JPIV/P2 lets you move around, the one from the Su85 should be static but give you a guaranteed penetration and small stun or damage bonus. It should take some seconds to deploy so you don't use it mid combat (like Cautious)
For the ISU152: honestly, i would make focus sight the vet1 ability. So early on you have to spot for your ISU152 and not just wipe AT guns. from the get go.

M42-At gun: on top of tracking, it could receive cammouflage while in cover. Some past discussion has mention some AI capabilities, but i'm not sure if that could be solve by a vet ability or just unit performance.

A small stun from a for sure penetration would make it really easy to abuse SU-85 spam in anything above 1's or 2's. But that's really the only issue I can see with your suggestions.

i agree 100% with these

A small stun from a for sure penetration would make it really easy to abuse SU-85 spam in anything above 1's or 2's. But that's really the only issue I can see with your suggestions.

Oh, you mean like all these people abuse stugs twp stun?
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, you mean like all these people abuse stugs twp stun?
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Well the SU-85 has better penetration and also has more health and armor than a StuG III Ausf G. And Axis doesn't have a equivalent to the Jackson. Your StuG's also can't camouflage or get a garenteed penetration.

Why do you always use personal attacks in like everyone of your posts? Jesus.

Well the SU-85 has better penetration and also has more health and armor than a StuG III Ausf G. And Axis doesn't have a equivalent to the Jackson. Your StuG's also can't camouflage or get a garenteed penetration.

wait why are we comparing stugs to su85s they aren't in even same teir (3 and 4). also currently last i checked stugs are currently balanced to be primary anti infantry veichles where before they were focused on anti tank. (stugs roles have been flip flopped alot over coh2 life span.)

edit: to clafify im talking about the non doctrinal stug the one with the long gun. (in the right hands i imagine stug stun can be very annoying still.)

Oh, you mean like all these people abuse stugs twp stun?
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

It might seem like TWP and the posited ambush-shot would be fairly equivalent at first glance, but really there's quite a lot of usability difference. Compare MG42 incendiary rounds to the pak stun for example.

Incendiary rounds- you can activate it beforehand, have the crew do the entire loading procedure, and once the target shows up at any point it just points and zaps very reliably.

TWP (Stug) - Target has to be in range, firstly, and target leaving the range of the stug at any point means the entire process resets itself as the stug moves forward after the target. the target travelling through the whole 30 degree arc of the stug as it aims also resets the aim-and-fire sequence as the stug has to rotate and reacquire again. overall, much more fickle.

Leaving an SU85 in ambush mode is a lot like the MG42 with incendiary. Everything is prepped, the moment the target enters range and sight- SU85 fires.

now imagine if the MG42 with incendiaries 1. only worked if you clicked the incendiary round button, then a squad already in the arc 2. once you click the target squad, then the MG begins the reload cycle 3. if the squad leaves the arc at any point, the MG repacks and faces the squad, and the whole process begins from square one. The ability would be nigh useless. Ofc the stug has no 3-second deploy time, but the example still stands.

That being said, all the ideas seem pretty great. would definitely make the units more interesting, and tracking is pretty awful as it is now.

wait why are we comparing stugs to su85s they aren't in even same teir also currently last i checked stugs are designed to be more anti infantry disagree or agree it doesn't matter.

Yeah, that's kinda the issue, I have no idea why Katitof was even comparing the two. The StuG III Ausf G is just a PIV with out a turret and crappier performance against infantry and mediocre ponformance against tanks.

The Ausf E however, is very good. Might be shit against anything but light armor, but it destorys enemy infantry concentrations.

Regarding the Su85.
It doesn't neccesarily needs to be a stun/paralize. It could be a debuff similar to button on which the tank get slower.
I also mention it could be a damage buff instead, eventhough i would prefer my first idea. This rewards someone who previously anticipated the opponent, and gives more windows of opportunity to the Su85 before it loses it's range advantage.

Offtopic: remember that Stugs are 80f, just 10 more than a T70.

cool ideas. would make it more interesting for sure and varied.

Regarding the Su85.
It doesn't neccesarily needs to be a stun/paralize. It could be a debuff similar to button on which the tank get slower.
I also mention it could be a damage buff instead, eventhough i would prefer my first idea. This rewards someone who previously anticipated the opponent, and gives more windows of opportunity to the Su85 before it loses it's range advantage.

Offtopic: remember that Stugs are 80f, just 10 more than a T70.

The problem is that it would just make the SU-85 a stealth Jackson if it got a damage boost on it's first "ambush" shot. It just seems like it would make Axis mediums even more rare, and the Panther only has 800 health.

It would be cool if the SU-85 could lock down in stealth camo and get a for sure pen on the first "ambush shot", but I don't think it needs anymore damage/stun.

Well the SU-85 has better penetration and also has more health and armor than a StuG III Ausf G. And Axis doesn't have a equivalent to the Jackson. Your StuG's also can't camouflage or get a garenteed penetration.

Why do you always use personal attacks in like everyone of your posts? Jesus.

Corrected that for you, a stug is also 33% cheaper than a su85 and has anti inf capabilities. Btw TWP is a guaranteed penetration on all non heavy since it has 280 pen.

I just wonder why axis' units have better vet ability... From light vehicles straight to the heaviest...

#ProAxisDesign

I just wonder why axis' units have better vet ability... From light vehicles straight to the heaviest...

#ProAxisDesign

T-70 on recon mode with vet gives you so much vision, its crazy!, and Soviet tanks have the OP capture point ability

The problem is that it would just make the SU-85 a stealth Jackson if it got a damage boost on it's first "ambush" shot. It just seems like it would make Axis mediums even more rare, and the Panther only has 800 health.

It would be cool if the SU-85 could lock down in stealth camo and get a for sure pen on the first "ambush shot", but I don't think it needs anymore damage/stun.

The idea of the Su85 is already to hard counter mediums and help dealing with heavies. Remind you that we are talking about a STATIC Su85 which has limited turning on its gun.
Stugs for 230mp + 80f can already do the same but on the move (see posts above)

We also have other units in the game with similar capabilities.

Little game. Guess which units get its and at which vet:
For first shot fired out of camouflage +100000 penetration & +25% damage
For first shot fired out of camouflage +150% damage & +150% accuracy & +150% penetration

Show Spoiler

T-70 on recon mode with vet gives you so much vision, its crazy!, and Soviet tanks have the OP capture point ability

Tripwire mines...
Although, they pay for themselves if hit obers

Corrected that for you, a stug is also 33% cheaper than a su85 and has anti inf capabilities. Btw TWP is a guaranteed penetration on all non heavy since it has 280 pen.

Try using a StuG III Ausf G for anti infantry and see how far it gets you. And who cares if the stun shot can pen mediums when the StuG has problems making any hits afterward count because a stunned tank doesn't have less armor.

The idea of the Su85 is already to hard counter mediums and help dealing with heavies. Remind you that we are talking about a STATIC Su85 which has limited turning on its gun.
Stugs for 230mp + 80f can already do the same but on the move (see posts above)

We also have other units in the game with similar capabilities.

Little game. Guess which units get its and at which vet:
For first shot fired out of camouflage +100000 penetration & +25% damage
For first shot fired out of camouflage +150% damage & +150% accuracy & +150% penetration

The Puppchen has good vet bonus's, to bad nobody uses it because the unit itself is garbage. Fragile, can't hit shit, and has a anemic ROF.

And yeah if your doing the equivalent of hull downing an SU-85 I can see why it would be balanced, but it would be extremely map dependent.

Why not just give the SU-85 a vet ability that lets it see enemy tanks in fog of war beyond it's sight radius? I mean it's a blood tank destroyer.

Try using a StuG III Ausf G for anti infantry and see how far it gets you. And who cares if the stun shot can pen mediums when the StuG has problems making any hits afterward count because a stunned tank doesn't have less armor.

I use the stug all the time as wehrmacht.

I use the stug all the time as wehrmacht.

Your thinking of the StuG Ausf E, which is amazing versus infantry. But the StuG III Ausf G isn't very good against infantry at all, it's like the SU-76 but just marginally less shit.

All assault guns in this game need some help, except for the Sturmtiger.

It sounds like a good start but the SU85 requires other work as well.