Stormpioneers post patch

But that would destroy this beautiful, pure, aryan ladder that isn't corrupted by a single allied game.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198044283346

he played soviets once in 2v2 random and surprisingly lost

So ok, the're optimal for mid range combat.

My only problem is that I don't know where midrange is
sure I know the numbers but it's not like I have a damn ruler to measure distances for every engagement ingame

I mean staying at long range is easy, stay at maximum shooting range of your troops.
Closerange is also simple, go hug your enemy.

But stay midrange?

he played soviets once in 2v2 random and surprisingly lost

Would you believe that 2v2 was back at launch and right after Beta, so it literally has no bearing on now.

So ok, the're optimal for mid range combat.

My only problem is that I don't know where midrange is
sure I know the numbers but it's not like I have a damn ruler to measure distances for every engagement ingame

I mean staying at long range is easy, stay at maximum shooting range of your troops.
Closerange is also simple, go hug your enemy.

But stay midrange?

Yeah, it is not intuitive, especially since "mid range" seems to mean something different for every unit. There would need to be some kind of indicators in game, but I don't know how that could look like.

They are still a powerful unit, but now they will lose the fight at long range vs rifles and less often vs conscripts. That's normal since they are armed with smg.

They're still a solid unit. The survivability allows you more margin for errors, but reduced DPS also means you can't just click next to a conscript squad and be certain to defeat them. Sturmpioneers were always meant to be used along with Volks, and this combination is as effective as it ever was.

So <15 AE deal more damage than SP, but > SP deal more damage than AE.

AE are 260 MP and SP are 320 MP. Weapon wise they are probably the same. Utility wise I guess the SP are slightly better, but not much. Dunno if the 13% less received accuracy is enough to balance it out. I'd assume the AE are a tad too good (I'd price them at 270 or maybe even 280MP for their performance purely stat wise).

Edit:

Yeah, it is not intuitive, especially since "mid range" seems to mean something different for every unit. There would need to be some kind of indicators in game, but I don't know how that could look like.

It's not perfectly accurate, but I'd say something along:
Short range: 5-15
Mid range: 15-25
Long range: 25-35

Ranges below 5 do not really matter as it's almost impossible to reach those. To reach anything below 5 range with more than one entity of a squad you basically need to have the squads stand either directly next to each other or inside each other and both players need to spam "Stop" all the time. If squads are so close the Squad AI goes crazy and they run around a lot requiring this spamming.

Edit2:
These ranges are abstract ones I'd use for those ranges. It is very well possible that certain units with mid performance peak at 16 range (as Stormpios do AFAIK) or peak at 21 (PGrens when I last compared them). They are simply ranges in which a "short", "mid" or "long" unit is usually pretty effective. It's really hard to judge the correct range anyways, so I'd rather have broad ranges. The average peak of units is probably:
Short: 10
Mid: 16
Long: 30
from a few examples. I just checked

So you'd say that sturmpioneers, can't really inflict damage of the short range class, since their mid range starts already at 3?

Read what you write. Read it again. Read it again. It's fuckign disrespectful towards people who spend the time to provide you with graphs in order to actually help you understand it. You disgust me. Feel free to report me, I'm done with this.

i think everyone needs to take their post-nerf rage hats off.

Sturmpios are still among the best early game infantry. If used in cover and in close range they win engagements very quickly. This is always how they were used properly pre-patch, and they are still used in the same way now.

Just because there actually exists an allied infantry that are better than them at t0 now doesnt mean theyre underpowered. Allied are supposed to have the early game advantage. It just means theres a single t0 unit out there that can beat sturmpios. Its a logical balancing move considering how many tanks OBW gets that totally rip up shermans and jacksons.

So you'd say that sturmpioneers, can't really inflict damage of the short range class, since their mid range starts already at 3?

he says it is almost impossible to go under 5 range since crazy things start to happen

Read what you write. Read it again. Read it again. It's fuckign disrespectful towards people who spend the time to provide you with graphs in order to actually help you understand it. You disgust me. Feel free to report me, I'm done with this.

Hey calm down. I'm just confused by the patch notes that say mid range reduced to 3 and your post that states effectively short range starts at 5. No need to be offended.
I really appreciate your posts generally.

Just because there actually exists an allied infantry that are better than them at t0 now doesnt mean theyre underpowered.

A doctrinal unit that will only be present in the early game if the opponent went Armor Company (they exist in Mechanized, but as a 3 CP halftrack group)

Pretty sure I can consistently make it happen. I may be many things, a half-troll, a stupidly serious and pragmatic brick wall of a person, an Axis purist player. That said I am NOT a liar.

Well, the numbers just don't add up then - unless we have a different notions about what mid to close range is.

Hey calm down. I'm just confused by the patch notes that say mid range reduced to 3 and your post that states effectively short range starts at 5. No need to be offended.
I really appreciate your posts generally.

Milka states that short range is 0-15 but because of squad behavior the first 5 meter don't really count.
Now these previous numbers have nothing to do with the stats of weapons. See this comment I made earlier about the n/m/f modifiers: http://www.coh2.org/topic/23840/about-the-patch-details/post/213245

Sturmpioneers:

• Added a received accuracy modifier of 0.87
  
• Near range distance from 8 to 3
  
• Mid range distance from 16 to 15
  
• Far mid distance from 35 to 28
  

Make up your own mind if they are good or bad. I added Rifles, Cons, Con-PPsH and PGrens to the list - All just one weapon, not a whole squad. Stats wise I'd say the SP are still better than most squads at close range, but they certainly excel at mid range. Why?
There are a lot of squads that beat them in long range damage, so that certainly isn't a point where they are great. There are a few squads that can beat them in close range damage (Shocks, PPsH41 Cons, AE, BAR Rifles, Thompson Paras, ...), but there are few squads that can beat them at mid range.

The following picture shows the DPS per range of the weapon of the named squad divided by the DPS of the weapon of Sturmpios. The lower the value the better is the performance of Sturmpios vs the unit at that range.



As you can see while every squad has a different point at which the Sturmpio should fight them they can tackle all of them reasonably well at mid range. That's why I'd personally classify them as a mid range squad - not because their weapon is best at mid range, but relative to others their weapon is on average best at mid range.

The following is taken directly out of the staff forums and is not really well explained. It's part of a guide I and others once started to write regarding the mechanics and stats of CoH2. Never really got too far as motivation quickly drops. Ignore the texts besides the explanation to ranges and such. CBA to edit it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want, some picture regarding the ranges.

Jagdpanzer:
| | range: {
| | | distance: {
| | | | far: 60f;
| | | | mid: 30f;
| | | | near: 0f;
| | | };

And
| | penetration: {
| | | far: 170f;
| | | mid: 185f;
| | | near: 200f;
| | };

Maybe just a side-view of the vehicle and then 60 range and the values below or such.. I just want people to spot the connection between the ingame ranges, the near/mid/far ranges and then the values/modifiers at those ranges.

Premier League Paint Art:


Besides that probably the same for infantry, but going one step further this time:
M1 Carbine for Paratroopers
| | range: {
| | | distance: {
| | | | far: 35f;
| | | | mid: 22f;
| | | | near: 4f;
| | | };
| | | max: 35f;
| | | min: 0f;
| | };

This time it's not only 3 values, but 4 (if someone finds one where all 5 are important, feel free to use that one), as min and near are no longer the same. Alternatively, just make a slightly abstract picture:
| | range: {
| | | distance: {
| | | | far: D;
| | | | mid: C;
| | | | near: B;
| | | };
| | | max: E;
| | | min: A;
| | };



Between A and B it constantly uses near values and DPS stays the same.
Between B and C it linearly interpolates the "near" and "mid" values.
Between C and D it linearly interpolates the "mid" and "far" values.
Between D and E it constantly uses the far values and DPS stays the same.

That's basically the 5 values that exist and can be used to model / create the weapon profiles.

Once people understood those ranges I would like to go on to explain the different values for penetration, accuracy, burst time and how this can be used to model the weapons more accurately.

If you have other ideas for pics, feel free to post them

+1000
Great post MilkaCow!!!

I encourage you to make similar charts for the rest of core units. They would be REALLY useful to learn optimal distances to fight enemy squads without having to lose plenty of games beforehand.

Good post MilkaCow. I think you painted a good representation of where sturmpios sit when compared to other infantry.

The following is taken directly out of the staff forums and is not really well explained. It's part of a guide I and others once started to write regarding the mechanics and stats of CoH2. Never really got too far as motivation quickly drops.

You are one of the most reasonable person to post here, I like your charts and explanations, if you still intend to make that guide, a lot of posters would appreciate it, including me !