Infiltration grenades working as intended?

Their value is not gated by the cost. It's gated by the role it plays in the commander tree, and the 2 minute out of combat cooldown.

That's like saying howitzers should only cost 200 mp, because they are gated by commanders and can only shoot every 90 secs.

That's like saying howitzers should only cost 200 mp, because they are gated by commanders and can only shoot every 90 secs.

Howitzers shoot from a safe distance and shoot EVERY 90 seconds, no matter what happens else, so you're comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, they are working as intended.

I would not be opposed to ammo cost increase to 20, though it will be small consolation to the guys on the receiving end.

To correspond with the actual ingame effect their cost would have to be around 40. Oh, but just a small matter. Make them non-doctrinal and remove their 2 minute out-of-combat cooldown, then we can talk "normal" price.

No? Doctrine? 2 minute cooldown? Long animation time?

Ok then. 10 ammo it is.

Wow i kept trying to force myself to believe that there was no bias on this forum. When we were discussing American companies no cared if it was doctrinal for the price the answers were : but you don't have to invest in the teching, it should be more expensive.
Here we have : it's doctrinal, it should be less expensive.
Long animation time, short range? Not more than other grenades, the first grenade will be thrown at the same time as the others.
Easely dodgable? How's a grenade with a much bigger AOE, multiple explosions that "stuns" your squad any easier to dodge than a normal grenade?
How hard's a 2 minutes cooldown compared to a squad wipe?
Charge the enemy who's holding the grenades? what about he throws the grenades in front of him? Great area denial for 10MU and it will criple the squad so much it might just retreat.

Get real, those double standards have to stop.

Edit: I am generalising.

When we were discussing American companies no cared if it was doctrinal for the price the answers were : but you don't have to invest in the teching, it should be more expensive.

Well, these forums are not one person and I don't remember partaking in the discussion you are speaking about. If I am biased - well and good, I might be, personally. But you can't accuse the entire forum of collective bias.

What would you do with the grenades? What would make them balanced in your opinion?

Wow i kept trying to force myself to believe that there was no bias on this forum. When we were discussing American companies no cared if it was doctrinal for the price the answers were : but you don't have to invest in the teching, it should be more expensive.
Here we have : it's doctrinal, it should be less expensive.
Long animation time, short range? Not more than other grenades, the first grenade will be thrown at the same time as the others.
Easely dodgable? How's a grenade with a much bigger AOE, multiple explosions that "stuns" your squad any easier to dodge than a normal grenade?
How hard's a 2 minutes cooldown compared to a squad wipe?
Charge the enemy who's holding the grenades? what about he throws the grenades in front of him? Great area denial for 10MU and it will criple the squad so much it might just retreat.

Get real, those double standards have to stop.

Edit: I am generalising.

are you talking about call-ins in that first paragraph? if so you cant really compare them to an ability... and i cant think of any ability in the US docs that is comparable either.

i might be biased, because i prefer playing axis, but with all the drawbacks (out of combat CD, easy to recognize animation, dependency on squad size, the randomness of where the grenades actually land) its a pretty balanced ability

Special Ops doc is quite shitty

mmm.... I wouldn't say so....

are you talking about call-ins in that first paragraph? if so you cant really compare them to an ability... and i cant think of any ability in the US docs that is comparable either.

i might be biased, because i prefer playing axis, but with all the drawbacks (out of combat CD, easy to recognize animation, dependency on squad size, the randomness of where the grenades actually land) its a pretty balanced ability

I too tough that "out of combat" was a thing, but you can actually use it in combat while being seen from miles and being shot at. I have no idea why. The animation might be easy to recognize, but the first grenade is thrown pretty soon after the first guy made his move. 0.6 seconds after the grenade landed it creates a pretty big blast throwing your guys around and removing control over that squad. Subsequant grenades do the same. Which makes it really hard to dodge. The Randomness isn't so much a thing with the number of grenades and wide area.

I went and tried it into Cheatcommands. It was rather hard to be consistant because i had to work both sides but it always did at least half the squad's health in damage even with like 3 squad members. Sometimes, certain grenades would land under their feets for hardly any damage which is wierd, but the over all effect was quitte satisfying.

It's overall a rather wierd ability, being given to units that usualy work in the long range, making it the best counter assault ability if i may call it so for units that are succeptible to getting assaulted. It could probably use reworking and in the end, given to units like the sturmpios. In any case, never underestimate the use of volks in an assault with that. It's really cheap price makes it a no brainer on the assault when it's availible.

Wow i kept trying to force myself to believe that there was no bias on this forum...............


Get real, those double standards have to stop.

Edit: I am generalising.

You will not find me standing in your way

I expect you have seen that Ami genially refers to the Balance section as "the Latrines", since they were something of a bad joke on the old board. It may assist if i put the thing in this way: the problem seems to be that some posters (usually new to the board) may think Relic is deputing their staff to trawl through every balance thread which is created here. The new posters somehow inspire themselves to think up ideas, which they hope will come to and inspire the attention of the Devs. They insert 'Relic' into the title of the thread, as if Relic will hone straight in on it.

But it does not work like this. The Devs have discussions with the Top Admins here. In turn, the Top Admins know what is going on in their board, and where to look, if they need to assess feedback on a particular issue. But as I said earlier, the Balance section has a certain 'whiff' about it and will likely continue to do so, unless and until a vociferous minority either learn to debate responsibly with their peers, or quit the game.

More Moderators are being badged, which will also assist with handling bad manners and fights, but the bias is more difficult.

I too tough that "out of combat" was a thing, but you can actually use it in combat while being seen from miles and being shot at. I have no idea why.

its only the CD that is affected by being out of combat. you have to keep the unit out of combat for the CD to recharge. shooting or getting shot at stops the ability from recharging for a period of time. so if you go for 3 volks in the early game you wont be able to use it that much since youll have to keep them infight to seize/defend territory.
basically its also possible to use other grenades multiple times over the course of one engagement. you wont be able to do that with the infiltration grenades though

I find these grenades very effective.
Especially against low armor squads as conscripts, they nearly always force retreat.

I don't know about their cost, but it doesn't bother me. I mean, grenades are always a certain 'jump in the unknown'. You never know what you're going to get.

I find these grenades very effective.
Especially against low armor squads as conscripts, they nearly always force retreat.

I don't know about their cost, but it doesn't bother me. I mean, grenades are always a certain 'jump in the unknown'. You never know what you're going to get.

Yes, it's good to note that all grenades have their own randomness too, dealing very low damage at time for 30MU, this one is much more constant and can deal squap wipe/force retreat more often than people might expect.

its only the CD that is affected by being out of combat. you have to keep the unit out of combat for the CD to recharge. shooting or getting shot at stops the ability from recharging for a period of time. so if you go for 3 volks in the early game you wont be able to use it that much since youll have to keep them infight to seize/defend territory.
basically its also possible to use other grenades multiple times over the course of one engagement. you wont be able to do that with the infiltration grenades though

Would you pay 30MU many time, or pay 10MU once to pretty much seal the deal on the first go? The choice is rather simple for me.

CoH is a serie of won engagements, if you can push/stop your enemy dead straight and prevent your enemy from winning them from the start (of the engagement), dosen't matter how long it last. You can then use your momentum to cut off more of their ressources. This squad/wipe force retreat makes it worth the 2min cooldown. As i said above, they are also very constant with their minimum damage apparently, which is nothing to snuff at.

You will not find me standing in your way

I expect you have seen that Ami genially refers to the Balance section as "the Latrines", since they were something of a bad joke on the old board. It may assist if i put the thing in this way: the problem seems to be that some posters (usually new to the board) may think Relic is deputing their staff to trawl through every balance thread which is created here. The new posters somehow inspire themselves to think up ideas, which they hope will come to and inspire the attention of the Devs. They insert 'Relic' into the title of the thread, as if Relic will hone straight in on it.

But it does not work like this. The Devs have discussions with the Top Admins here. In turn, the Top Admins know what is going on in their board, and where to look, if they need to assess feedback on a particular issue. But as I said earlier, the Balance section has a certain 'whiff' about it and will likely continue to do so, unless and until a vociferous minority either learn to debate responsibly with their peers, or quit the game.

More Moderators are being badged, which will also assist with handling bad manners and fights, but the bias is more difficult.

Ahah, thanks and no i didn't know about the old nickname, i wasn't a forum dweller back in CoH1. I know the balance section is quitte.... well what you said, i tough about posting it in the gameplay section but this is definatly about balance.

I try to bring mostly a calm argumentation and invite people to do so, but it seems that as long as the vocal minority "says no" it's no, however good your argument is, being supported by tests and Relic's own design decision.

Also what does Ami stands for? it means "friend" in french so i am confused.

I expected to be flamed for saying it, i prefer this outcome much better.

tbh, i don't see a problem with them, yes they are abit too cheap, but nothing gamebreaking to be honest. They have a pretty long cooldown,yes they are cheap. I think putting them to 15 or 20 munis would be fine.

I find these grenades very effective.
Especially against low armor squads as conscripts, they nearly always force retreat.

I don't know about their cost, but it doesn't bother me. I mean, grenades are always a certain 'jump in the unknown'. You never know what you're going to get.

i think that grenades have enough penetration to counter any infantry armor.

Can infiltration grenades be utterly devastating ? yes with bit of luck as you cannot control where the nades will land. if you ask me the most potent nade in the game is the obers white phosphor nade that nade has a very reliable potential to wipe squads and force retreats.

I've found these grenades have multiple times been able to keep me in games... Can't say if they're OP or not, but they're absolutely devastating.

commie, it's not a "vocal minority" disagreeing with you, it's about half the people in this thread. This includes, notably, a couple of highly ranked players who addressed your points thoroughly and respectfully. You're coming off as very self satisfied with your "tests and Relics own design decision" verbiage, but all you've shown so far are opinions and a video clip of getting pwnt because you were caught off guard.

To summarize, this thread has one group of people who point to the low cost and high power of infil nades, and another group of people who point to its doctrinal spot, long cooldown, and out of combat requirement. There are high(er than me) level players on both sides, but the players who say they're fine have also written about how to anticipate, prepare for, and counter the ability. You keep going back to the potential for squad wipes or forced retreats, but plenty of other players are saying that the ability doesn't force a retreat or threaten a squad wipe at all.

If you want to claim the moral high ground and complain about "bias", you should at least provide some replays of these grenades overperforming significantly, taking into account that they can be used infrequently and they shut OKW out of some of the most dangerous doctrines.

i mean it can't be 40mu x 5 (or however many grenades aren't thrown). so using cost to balance the ability isn't a good idea.

instead relic used other means to limit the use of it. i think they did a ok job.

commie, it's not a "vocal minority" disagreeing with you, it's about half the people in this thread. This includes, notably, a couple of highly ranked players who addressed your points thoroughly and respectfully. You're coming off as very self satisfied with your "tests and Relics own design decision" verbiage, but all you've shown so far are opinions and a video clip of getting pwnt because you were caught off guard.

To summarize, this thread has one group of people who point to the low cost and high power of infil nades, and another group of people who point to its doctrinal spot, long cooldown, and out of combat requirement. There are high(er than me) level players on both sides, but the players who say they're fine have also written about how to anticipate, prepare for, and counter the ability. You keep going back to the potential for squad wipes or forced retreats, but plenty of other players are saying that the ability doesn't force a retreat or threaten a squad wipe at all.

If you want to claim the moral high ground and complain about "bias", you should at least provide some replays of these grenades overperforming significantly, taking into account that they can be used infrequently and they shut OKW out of some of the most dangerous doctrines.

Vocal minority means the people who talks, but those people are still a minority considering the vast number of player who didn't talk who are also part of the community.

I counter argumentated those points and repeated myself a few time to be sure. Not gonna do it again. So either you didn't read the post or you ignore those arguments which is said "bias". Arguments should work both ways.

As for the videos, there is one expressing pretty much all the points mentionned in this thread. I never was caught off guard. I saw them comming from miles and war going to engage them (hence the smoke) but i didn't expect an instant 10MU squad wipe, so yea i guess you could say i got caught off guard.

I thought this cost much more. These grenades will instantly kill garrisons and setup teams. I mean, molotov is what, 25 munis? Even 20 is too cheap.

I edited the OP to make it easier to find the arguments and not have to read trough everything. Might make some more videos.

@Arclyte
The molotovs are 25 fuel for the upgrade and 15munitions per shot.